The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Leaf_It]

The Thrall army is one of my favorites. I've brought it to several tournaments, and done pretty well with it. I like the idea of adding more thralls to the mix, but this one feels like you haven't thought it through very well. Let me explain. If it was just with the Thrall that you took a turn with (and the figures adjacent) that would be pretty good, and interesting, but because it's all figures adjacent to every Surgecoil Thrall you control, you would have to start the game with them separated from every other unit in your army or you risk killing half your army on turn one. To add to that, because of the way thralls function, you would be rolling for this 3 separate times (on a 16 or higher, or 2 separate times on a 6 or higher) which not only forces you to never place them adjacent to your own figures, it's borderline overpowered if you can get them next to more than one enemy figure. Even if you don't kill the enemy figures your adjacent to with the first Surgecoil, the way it's worded, only the Surgecoil that took the turn needs to roll, but every figure adjacent to any Surgecoil needs to roll, and they will need to roll multiple times if you are taking turns with 3 different Surge coils. This is a better Fire storm, and I don't really like that.

You can fix all of this by just restricting the Surge to the Thrall that took the turn, and not activating it on every Surgecoil Thrall. It'll be a neat AOE addition to the army. Maybe you could change it to a special attack since it's affecting every figure they are adjacent to, which would lower it's over all power to be more in line with the other thralls. It would keep the Thrall from being able to attack, and AOE in the same turn, and most of the other thrall's death mechanics are attached to an attack of some kind too. But the always on mechanic is interesting too, so either way could be fine.

In regards to stats, the Bloodburst is already 5 move, 3 Attack, 4 Defense, so if you change the Surgecoil from 6 move, 4 attack, 4 Defense, I would lower the defense instead of the attack, just for the sake of variety, and probably the move as well.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Unstable Break? Unstable Burst? Plasma Burst? Plasma Discharge? Plasma Rupture?

Thematically, it feels a bit off to me that only the Thrall that moved has to roll for damage. I understand the mechanical side (it would suck to lose a quarter of your guys turn 1), but I wonder if there is a more thematic way to implement the idea. Maybe only engaged Surgecoil Thralls get/have to roll for the power? They're safe until they get to the enemy, at which point they become (non)living bombs? Though that does miss out on the "risk to friends and food" side of things ...

Cool thrall idea overall. I wouldn't call it a better Firestorm -- comparable, but less consistency with you not having a guaranteed three turns with thralls, though a little more flexibility with not being restricted to being in Kurrok's LoS. Still, something to look out for.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

The Thrall army is one of my favorites. I've brought it to several tournaments, and done pretty well with it. I like the idea of adding more thralls to the mix, but this one feels like you haven't thought it through very well. Let me explain. If it was just with the Thrall that you took a turn with (and the figures adjacent) that would be pretty good, and interesting, but because it's all figures adjacent to every Surgecoil Thrall you control, you would have to start the game with them separated from every other unit in your army or you risk killing half your army on turn one.

I don't mind this. It's one of the things that keeps their power in check. It means you can't exactly stuff your start zone with them.

To add to that, because of the way thralls function, you would be rolling for this 3 separate times (on a 16 or higher, or 2 separate times on a 6 or higher) which not only forces you to never place them adjacent to your own figures, it's borderline overpowered if you can get them next to more than one enemy figure. Even if you don't kill the enemy figures your adjacent to with the first Surgecoil, the way it's worded, only the Surgecoil that took the turn needs to roll, but every figure adjacent to any Surgecoil needs to roll, and they will need to roll multiple times if you are taking turns with 3 different Surge coils. This is a better Fire storm, and I don't really like that.

I disagree. Firestorm is better in just about every way. First of all, FEs get guaranteed 3 activations, rather than an average of 2. Second, FEs don't self-destruct. Third, FEs have a lower roll. The scenario you described (where you take turns with other Surgecoils and then roll for the first one who's gotten himself nicely engaged) works with Fire Elementals, too.
These have two advantages: 6 move rather than 5, and 30 points rather than 35. I think that's fair.

You can fix all of this by just restricting the Surge to the Thrall that took the turn, and not activating it on every Surgecoil Thrall. It'll be a neat AOE addition to the army. Maybe you could change it to a special attack since it's affecting every figure they are adjacent to, which would lower it's over all power to be a more in line with the other thralls. It would keep the Thrall from being able to attack and AOE in the same turn, and most of the other thrall's death mechanics are attached to an attack
of some kind too.

The AoE and the attack on the same turn doesn't bother me. In fact, that's part of the goal of this design, is to make a Thrall that is stronger than the others, but liable to die at any point.

In regards to stats, the Bloodburst is already 5 move, 3 Attack, 4 Defense, so if you change the Surgecoil from 6 move, 4 attack, 4 Defense, I would lower the defense instead of the attack, just for the sake of variety, and probably the move as well.

Interesting idea. The Bloodburst does have a conditional +1 to attack (that often is perfectly safe), so I think of it as a 4/4 with 5 move. I might go 4/3 with 5 move anyway, though. Good thought.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

Unstable Break? Unstable Burst? Plasma Burst? Plasma Discharge? Plasma Rupture?

Thematically, it feels a bit off to me that only the Thrall that moved has to roll for damage. I understand the mechanical side (it would suck to lose a quarter of your guys turn 1), but I wonder if there is a more thematic way to implement the idea. Maybe only engaged Surgecoil Thralls get/have to roll for the power? They're safe until they get to the enemy, at which point they become (non)living bombs? Though that does miss out on the "risk to friends and food" side of things ...

Cool thrall idea overall. I wouldn't call it a better Firestorm -- comparable, but less consistency with you not having a guaranteed three turns with thralls, though a little more flexibility with not being restricted to being in Kurrok's LoS. Still, something to look out for.

That was the original idea. I had the player rolling for every Thrall and every adjacent figure. It just was completely unplayable, since the ones in the start zone kept dying before you could even move them.

The engaged restriction is a decent idea. Or maybe just roll if they're adjacent to any figure. Isolating them could be safe, but you just have to be very careful with placement (beyond just SZ considerations).

[Scytale]

I'd suggest making it simpler.


??? SURGE
After taking a turn with a Surgecoil Thrall, you must roll the 20-sided die for each figure adjacent to at least one Surgecoil Thrall you control. If you roll a 16 or higher, that figure receives one wound. If you roll a 1, you must destroy one of your Surgecoil Thralls adjacent to that figure.

There's still some weirdness, though. The self-destruct would still end the rolling for adjacent figures since they would no longer be adjacent, which is fine but not obvious from the power. It's also weird that the Surgecoil Thralls affect each other. Again, not a problem but not obvious either.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Scytale

I like the idea of an electrically-charged thrall, but I don't see it in the mini. That looks like a fire or wisp effect, not an electric one.

I haven't read all the feedback, but I did read this post. I think the power set and the faction look perfect for this mini. I'd be curious to see a picture of the actual mini, but I definitely see a zombie-ish undead bursting with electric energy from the image on the card.

I also really like the power. It's something new, and it's thematic. If Scy's timing objection remains a problem, I suspect it can be addressed by building into the power that the thrall rolls for itself last, after all adjacent figures have rolled. Others may have suggested that already.

edit: Huh. I guess not.

Scy's "??? Surge" looks like a good implementation, too, and I humbly suggest the power name Arc Burst as one option.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

??? SURGE
After taking a turn with a Surgecoil Thrall, you must roll the 20-sided die for each figure adjacent to at least one Surgecoil Thrall you control. If you roll a 16 or higher, that figure receives one wound. If you roll a 1, you must destroy one of your Surgecoil Thralls adjacent to that figure.

I really like this take on the power. It streamlines it quite nicely, and the risk increases proportional to how many figures that the Thrall is engaged to. It might need to have the roll slightly increased, though, and it doesn't allow for self-destructs on the way to targets.

[Sir Heroscape]

Back again after some time. I've been working through the Shadow Fiend, tirelessly trying to find a thematic, fun and more useful special than his last one. I've also made some changes to Commander Kuahtan (previously known as Kuah). I've gotten some really good feedback on my customs page, but wanted to open it up to a broader audience. I feel really good about where these have landed and would like to put more invested playtesting into them in their current iterations, unless of course there's some feedback that should be addressed.

[NecroBlade]

Why does it roll 4 dice for the second Fury attack? Does it get to keep rolling, moving, and attacking, or just the once?

Kuathan doesn't feel much like a leader to me. Would be a lot cooler if he did. Could he also be an Emperor and work with Einar Kyrie, like Kiova?

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

Why does it roll 4 dice for the second Fury attack? Does it get to keep rolling, moving, and attacking, or just the once?

Kuathan doesn't feel much like a leader to me. Would be a lot cooler if he did. Could he also be an Emperor and work with Einar Kyrie, like Kiova?

He's strengthened by the shadows around him. He can just do 1 attack of 3 and end his attack phase, or "over extend" himself and get a buffed up second attack. The power is pulled from Samuel Brown, and the Fiend is strengthened by those around him.

I thought about making him Emporer Kuahtan, but I don't like how restricted Kiova is. She's too specific in her powerset and the Imperium are so many points that it's hard to make them work together on a regular basis. I wanted Kuah to have synergy that could help the Imperium, but not be so exclusive that he never saw the table like Kiova. I still think it's thematic. Out of curiosity why do you feel he doesn't seem like a Leader? Migol is the only official Heroscape unit with Leader as a class, and frankly he seems less of a Leader than Kuahtan does. Migol's powers are all only for himself, whereas Kuahtan actually has a power that works with and is meant to protect those he commands etc.

[NecroBlade]

Fair points. The attack just has a lot going on and it doesn't really seem clear. And I'd argue that Leader is a poor choice for Migol as well, but nothing we can do about that. Neither one just does anything for me personally, I guess.

[BiggaBullfrog]

The Shadow Fiend is okay. I'm not a huge fan of essentially taking 6 turns in a row with them, but don't know that I'd vote against it strictly on that. I did prefer the simplicity of the previous SA, though.

I would give a hard no to Kuahtan's Leader's Reprisal working with "friendly Kyrie." No reason for him to make Raelin better. No reason to make your ally's Raelin better. And while I like looking for friendly synergy opportunities, having two Kuahtans in two friendly armies feels like too much of a bug. I'd just go with "Common Kyrie you control."

Also, is there any reason he can't be an Emperor with the current power set? I don't mind one way or the other, personally.