The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Pumpkin_King]

That’s true enough. I chose that one because of the availability, but I’ll see if I can find one that looks better.

[The Dewk]

I'm back, and with another 10 point filler in tow. When I first created my little goblin filler and received excellent critiques here over 6 months ago, I had no intention of creating more fillers. But then the combination of encouragement from others around me and a head full of ideas changed that intention.
I've played 7 games with him in this current form (15 total), and would like constructive critiques before I test him more heavily. So enough preface: I present Vantus the Tactician!



Theme/Bio:

Spoiler Alert!

While his superiors at the Waterdeep Military Academy were initially skeptical of the short, stout recruit, their doubts were soon laid to rest. What he lacked in physical prowess, Vantus more than made up for with tactics and strategy. From developing new combat techniques and equipment, to revising strategy mid-battle to adapt to unforeseen circumstances, Vantus proved to be a fine tactician. And it was with this in mind that Einar summoned Vantus from Toril - he had legions of soldiers, but few commanders to help them effectively win battles.
Vantus has already earned the title "The Tactician" on Toril, and will live up to that namesake on Valhalla as well.

Creativity:

Spoiler Alert!

Hailing the continent of Faerun, on the planet Toril, Vantus recognized from an early age that he did not have the physical prowess to be a great fighter. But he did possess a keen enough intellect that he could be an great leader of fighters. Knowing that he will never be the quick or agile combatant, Vantus has armored himself like a tank, and carries a large sword that, when required, he will use inverted to bludgeon armored foes with the heavy pommel.

Availability:

Spoiler Alert!

The mini comes from the D&D miniatures set "Storm King's Thunder" from late 2016, and is named Crag Ungart. He must be a pretty lousy figure in that game, as there are 100+ figures available under $5 (some as low as $0.99!) across various hobby sites and eBay. As with most D&D minis, he doesn't require rebasing.

Balance:

Spoiler Alert!

I have tested out a few versions of Vantus. He used to only have his Special Attack and Tactical Genius abilities, but both the gameplay tests and appearance of the miniature were begging for a defensive ability of some kind. A few ideas were toyed with, and in the end, he received Rounded Armor (as medieval architects started making castles rounded to deflect projectiles, so did armor-smiths do the same with armor). Vantus is sloooow, especially compared to his fellow filler units, and that offsets (and contributes to the flavor of) his tankiness. Isamu destroys him in a vacuum, yet Vantus fills other roles - he can potentially absorb attacks meant for others, high defense units will think twice about engaging with him, and most importantly, his Tactical Genius ability allows for some strategic finesse in trying to secure a critical initiative switch mid-to-late game. Just the other day I was playing a game when it came down to a 1 health Kira Jax vs a single 4th Mass, and we both knew the game was most likely going to go to the player who scored initiative (spoiler - it did). Vantus would've been a quite an advantage in this scenario, as I've experienced him in similar situations doing exactly what he is supposed to do. Rather than going in purely on the offensive with Isamu, Vantus will help to smooth out those late game plans among himself and your remaining units. He's got a fair amount going on, but still fits into his 10 points. A very useful unit, but not overpowered.
Lastly, unless I missed something big, there are only minor synergies associated with his characteristics. Count Raymond's Maneuver 9 is the most relevant.

Playability:

Spoiler Alert!

Even outside of a General Wars build or a thematic melee build, Vantus is a good pick. He fits best in a build with lots of units and board control, as when nearing end-game, when you're at least putting Order Marker 3 on him, he'll have a few other units to help take advantage of the initiative switch that will (hopefully) be in your favor. He does require a bit more finesse than other fillers to use effectively, but that is part of the fun. And he has been a lot of fun.

So what do you all think?

[superfrog]

Interesting. I'm not as intrigued by this guy as I was by Bol, but I'm not sure why.

Two main critiques:

I can't see the initiative power being that helpful. To get any use out of it, you have to use an Order Marker on him, and that's likely just a waste, which cancels any benefit you get. Also I'm a bit confused by the wording of the power.

He just doesn't seem dynamic. I think that's the main issue. 10 point figures have to have some charisma to the design, something that makes a unit worth taking. I think the Tactical Genius power is a good attempt at that, but it doesn't hit it right on the head.

[Pumpkin_King]

I know what you're going for is a 10 point hero, but I actually love Tactical Genius and I'd much rather see it on a higher point hero that I'd want to put OMs on.

[Ixe]

Vantus the Tactician

I'm not feeling this one. First of all, he feels like he's being forced into the 10 point filler slot. The figure looks like a sturdy fighter which isn't being sold by the 1 health and moderate defense. I don't care what story you tell about him only fighting with the pommel, it feels out of place for him to have such a massive weapon and such a paltry attack (you fail to wound more often than you hit even with the special).

Tactical Genius feels like a misnomer on this guy because it's a trap. Winning initiative is typically at its most valuable when you can set up an initiative switch. This usually means that you get two consecutive turns with which to pound away at your opponent without them being able to respond. By forcing you to waste OM3 on a melee hero with a move of 4 you are essentially throwing away any benefit of an initiative switch and instead just wasting turns. Even if he survives the round there is still a chance that the extra roll will just be wasted. At least rounded armor gives him some defense against range or else you'll literally waste order markers on this guy and have him die to a stray shot so easily.

[The Dewk]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Interesting. I'm not as intrigued by this guy as I was by Bol, but I'm not sure why.

Two main critiques:

I can't see the initiative power being that helpful. To get any use out of it, you have to use an Order Marker on him, and that's likely just a waste, which cancels any benefit you get. Also I'm a bit confused by the wording of the power.

He just doesn't seem dynamic. I think that's the main issue. 10 point figures have to have some charisma to the design, something that makes a unit worth taking. I think the Tactical Genius power is a good attempt at that, but it doesn't hit it right on the head.

Your concerns are 100% valid, and people are allowed to like some things and not others! My brother actually thinks Vantus has less je ne sais quoi than Bol as well, and if that ends up being the general consensus, I'll have to rethink some things!

You are correct that the Tactical Genius ability is not terribly dynamic (though it requires some careful judging of current circumstances to use effectively) - you put OM 3 on him when there's only a handful of units left in your army, whap on a unit that is in Vantus's threat range, and then those other units will hopefully get a "first strike" in come next round.

Where Bol works very well in a hero-heavy army, Vantus works best in an army with numbers. But again, if he's not playable over Isamu, Bol, or even Otonashi, then I've got to rethink some things. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

I know what you're going for is a 10 point hero, but I actually love Tactical Genius and I'd much rather see it on a higher point hero that I'd want to put OMs on.

Innnteresting! The Initiative bonuses currently in the game are attached to higher point heroes, and I never considered slapping this ability on a higher point hero as well. I'll keep that in mind, and see what others have to say about Vantus. Thank you!

Originally Posted by Ixe

Vantus the Tactician

I'm not feeling this one. First of all, he feels like he's being forced into the 10 point filler slot. The figure looks like a sturdy fighter which isn't being sold by the 1 health and moderate defense. I don't care what story you tell about him only fighting with the pommel, it feels out of place for him to have such a massive weapon and such a paltry attack (you fail to wound more often than you hit even with the special).

Tactical Genius feels like a misnomer on this guy because it's a trap. Winning initiative is typically at its most valuable when you can set up an initiative switch. This usually means that you get two consecutive turns with which to pound away at your opponent without them being able to respond. By forcing you to waste OM3 on a melee hero with a move of 4 you are essentially throwing away any benefit of an initiative switch and instead just wasting turns. Even if he survives the round there is still a chance that the extra roll will just be wasted. At least rounded armor gives him some defense against range or else you'll literally waste order markers on this guy and have him die to a stray shot so easily.

You're the first to have an issue with his look, and I can see where you are coming from. What is the trick to judge what a unit's attack (or defense) should be based on its look? Grimnak has massive weapons, but an attack of 2, for instance.
I like your thoughts on Tactical Genius, and although it hasn't (always) been a waste in testing to toss OM 3 on him late game, it isn't as dynamic as it could be if it was on a different body. Thank you!

[Pumpkin_King]

When I say "higher point" I don't mean...like, Spartcus level. I could definitely still see him as a 50-60 point filler. All you'd need to do is give him a few more life and I'd be more than happy to put some OMs on him in midgame to get the initiative advantage gamble.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Vantus

I also don't think Vantus is as dynamic as I'd like him to be, and agree with Ixe that it seems like he's being forced into a 10-point price. I like what he's trying to do, and the powers are cool at a baseline level, but I think he's being held back by trying to keep him at 10 points.

I see the appeal of having a unit to give an initiative bonus in the endgame - it's huge! But currently you have to effectively waste a turn on Vantus in order to get that advantage. It's worse than cancelling that advantage out, because while you're moving him across the field 4 spaces at a time, you give your opponent a whole extra turn unhindered to develop their map control and further thin out your forces, resulting in a huge loss of momentum. I like the concept and think a defensive/strategic filler is an awesome idea, but I don't think Vantus is there yet.

[Sir Heroscape]

Honestly, I see one simple fix. Just make the Tactical Genius ability activate using the 'X' Order Marker at the end of the round and bump his points to 20 (because we only have Marcu for 20pt fillers right now). I really like the concept of the initiative ability, but using the X order Marker will make him SO worth using for just about any army you want. I'd draft him over Isamu most games just because I could sit him in my startzone and get chances to win initiative switches during the entire game. That, and then my opponent might even consider wasting turns going after him in order to keep me from that bonus. For 20pts...totally worth it in my mind since it's not a for sure win...it just gives you another chance to win initiative. To make him effective as a filler I think you have to use the X OM otherwise it's wasting turns. That, and it hinders players from drafting him with Gladiator and Dwarf builds because they'll want to keep the X OM for Spartacus and Morgrimm.

[Astroking112]

I saw Bol's design earlier in this thread and absolutely loved him as a new filler, but Vantus the Tactician doesn't feel as nice and compact to me. I completely agree with the sentiment expressed earlier--it feels like he's being forced into a 10 point design, and while I'd love to have more of those cheap fillers, he feels like he could be fleshed out with just a few more points.

I really like Sir Heroscape's suggestion of upping his point cost to 20. That would give some more leeway in making his ability work well, along with adding another viable 20 point filler (Marcu needs alternative options, too!) outside of Elven armies.

[Pumpkin_King]

You could even go with 40. Who else is 40, even. Theracus?

[Dad_Scaper]

I have a few problems with this candidate. Let’s start with the mini: What is that thing next to him? A sword? How tall is the mini? I see height 4 but I’m suspicious that he is a short 4. What are we looking at here?

I’m not liking what I see in this mini itself. Not that it’s bad, but it’s just not inspiring. If I understood the mini better then maybe I’d have more to say about the power set, which doesn’t seem to match the mini at all. Except for the rounded armor power, which looks like filler until a better idea - such as just leaving the space blank - comes along.