The Pre-SoV Workshop

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I'd much rather see the Einar Imperium be a viable option, adding more variety to the game overall.

They are. Making them a viable option in a 500pt double-blind format reduces variety rather than increasing it.

[superfrog]

One other point is that the Imperium already have a designated cheerleader. She's not great, but she exists.

[Pumpkin_King]

I guess I’m in the minority in that I actually liked the inspiration mechanic being reused here. I still would like to see this guy as an Imperium helper unit, maybe just using a different mechanic to do that. Though I think enough people have said that there would be s little pushback on that.

If you do go back to the drawing board, so to speak, might I suggest a Gladiator Kyrie?

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by superfrog

One other point is that the Imperium already have a designated cheerleader. She's not great, but she exists.

It’s gonna be ok Kiova... don’t let the bad frog make you think you aren’t worth anything...



I need to play Kiova and the Imperium again sometime soon.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by ollie

They are. Making them a viable option in a 500pt double-blind format reduces variety rather than increasing it.

I’m sorry, I just don’t see your rationale. I’ve never seen someone actually argue that these guys are good as is. To each his own I guess, but these guys are the most expensive squad in classic scape and they rarely, if ever, pull their weight. I’d be happy if they pulled half their weight in a battle. I mean I guess they could be scary in an 800pt game with tons of cover and castle walls or something to hide behind, but I’m pretty sure we don’t playtest units for those types of extreme game scenarios when considered for SoV/C3V...but what do I know, maybe you do...

[Dysole]

I'm actually planning on trying to work EI into an upcoming tournament build. Something like what Ollie has suggested but I'm weird and you shouldn't look to me for what people bring to tournaments.

That said, EI are costed very highly because they are very potent and so anything to help them will have to walk a fine line. It's like the Taelord concept. I personally don't REALLY mind "fix it" units (although occasionally something about a unit that helps another will bug me *cough* Cryptos *cough*). On the other hand, I don't like units that make it pretty much the same build every time. On the other hand which is a mitten on a foot, I'll play with just about anything.

~Dysole, musing

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Dysole

On the other hand, I don't like units that make it pretty much the same build every time.

That's my issue with the unit - in order to help the EI and make them viable, he's shoehorning them (and, by extension, himself) into pretty much one and only one army composition in which they're viable, which feels a little... boring? Forced? With other units that lend a hand to existing units (Zettian Infantry, Crypt Guardians) you can still build a variety of armies around them. That being said, there really is no way around that here - the Einar Imperium are already so prohibitively expensive that two squads is more than half of a 280 Point Army, and any external force making them worth their points will leave you with almost nothing left. In all honesty, I'd forget about trying to fix them with external factors, let this guy be his own thing and print out their CUC card - it's fun, useful, balanced, doesn't take up half your army and fits in better with the other kyrie squads.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by ollie

They are. Making them a viable option in a 500pt double-blind format reduces variety rather than increasing it.

I was initially confused by this, but @Lazy Orang 's explanation makes sense. I don't quite agree with it (since the alternative is likely never seeing Einar Imperium in a 500 point format at all), but I can see the concern in creating a unit designed for a specific build and how restrictive that is.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

That being said, there really is no way around that here - the Einar Imperium are already so prohibitively expensive that two squads is more than half of a 280 Point Army, and any external force making them worth their points will leave you with almost nothing left. In all honesty, I'd forget about trying to fix them with external factors, let this guy be his own thing and print out their CUC card - it's fun, useful, balanced, doesn't take up half your army and fits in better with the other kyrie squads.

I agree that this is the crux of "fixing" the Imperium: they're not bad, just overpriced. Almost any method of boosting them is only adding even more points on top of an already overpriced unit, which necessitates the Imperium becoming incredibly powerful to compensate. At the very least, I'm not sure if a Unique Hero can adequately add to the Einar Imperium without forcing a single viable build.

As for the CUC version, I personally have no qualms with using it (since at the Dallas scene CUC edits are sometimes permitted at tournaments ), but I can't deny the appeal of a C3V/SoV-permissible edit, especially since I believe that tournaments are more likely to include those than the CUC changes.

[ollie]

I agree with Lazy Orang, but my reasoning was different. A game where every unit is honed in synergy webs to work at 500pts has less variety than a game where some units just work less well in that format. There's nothing wrong with thinking that everything should be as functional as possible in that environment, but I think it's an approach that is more compatible with the CUC efforts than the SoV/C3V ones.

If someone wants to use the Einar Imperium in their games but are not using them in their games, then I'd say the problem was with the person not the unit. Set up an Imperium vs. Templar showdown. Play free-for-all multi-player where unit power is much less relevant. Design a custom that helps them without wanting it to be canon. Just play them anyway. There are plenty of choices.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by ollie

If someone wants to use the Einar Imperium in their games but are not using them in their games, then I'd say the problem was with the person not the unit. Set up an Imperium vs. Templar showdown. Play free-for-all multi-player where unit power is much less relevant. Design a custom that helps them without wanting it to be canon. Just play them anyway. There are plenty of choices.

Create a draft.

[Dysole]

Also, play in tournament formats that allow you to do things like run Sudema and Dünd in the same army or Runa, Sudema, and the Mindflayer in the same army.

~Dysole, who actually won the tournament with that second army and Sudema and Runa were huge parts of why she won

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by ollie

If someone wants to use the Einar Imperium in their games but are not using them in their games, then I'd say the problem was with the person not the unit. Set up an Imperium vs. Templar showdown. Play free-for-all multi-player where unit power is much less relevant. Design a custom that helps them without wanting it to be canon. Just play them anyway. There are plenty of choices.

I appreciate the reasoning (along with the other suggestions that everyone has made), but I still believe that designing a canon custom that helps them is as valid of a choice to pursue as any other. Just as someone might find that choice to be too much of a stretch, I think it's perfectly fine for someone to like that option the most, and to at least try to make a canon-acceptable custom that helps the Imperium or any other subpar units.

One of the things that I like the most about HeroScape is how any unit can be anything, and I think that trying to inhibit "competitive" units as an addition to an underused faction is contradictory to that purpose. Sure, suddenly players would feel obligated to take the new unit when using the Imperium at a tournament, but is that truly any different from players feeling obligated to not take the Imperium to a tournament on account of feeling too competitive? Even if a fix is released, we could still run plain Imperiums against Templars, set up specific drafts or scenarios for the Imperium only, or do any of those other methods. Adding a SoV unit would only increase the number of options that a player has to get value out of their units, which is why I personally do not find it to be a bad thing.

That all said, I'd agree that any such "band-aid" needs to be expertly designed to warrant existing, bringing new stuff to the table than we usually see in other armies. I'm not a fan of fixes that don't wow me, but I think that it's perfectly possible to design a custom that does.