Sir Heroscape's customs

[TREX]

Tying him in with rogues is fun too.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

For the card itself, I definitely agree that once per round is better (I really like Ronin's idea, but it wouldn't fly in VC), and that the movement bonding seems off. TREX has a good idea in having him move before the Buccaneers take their turn, or you could even just have him move the Buccaneers before he takes his turn (or just have him move Common Rogues on his turn). Range change to 1 is also good. Basically I like what's been said so far.

My main issue with the custom, though, is the figure (I own it and designed my own custom for it, so I've looked at it a lot). First off, the Special Attack is hard to justify when he only has one gun. I get the Blackbeard connection, but it's not connecting with the mini.

Next, he has a big tankard of ale or whatnot that he's drinking, and it seems odd to not have that carry through in the theme of the card somehow. He doesn't look like he's ready to juggle six guns anyway while it's in his hand.

Then there's also his skeleton hand, which is pretty obvious when you have the mini. Blackbeard was in no way famous for having a skeleton hand - you'd think people would have noticed it. While it would work for throwing in some kind of cursed by death power or some such, it doesn't really work for the famous pirate.

And speaking of it being Blackbeard, I'm not a big fan of that choice, though that can be changed easily with a name swap. If you're going to do Blackbeard, I'd prefer a mini that looks more like him (no skeleton hand, and with his iconic dynamite wicks in his beard) and with powers that go more with his frightening personality and tactics, which he was known for more than his blunt force.

Hmmm...you've given me a lot to think about...

[Sheep]

Came here to post my thoughts on Kuah.

I like the figure a lot but like others said, it’s too much of a shoo-in for Imperium x2, Kuah, 100pts. I liked Dad_Scaper’s advice:

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

You could make him a cheerleader, if you like. Just please don't horseshoe the Einar Imperium into the design.

Think Count Raymond or Zogross Hardscale, figures who give synergies to numerous figures but are really meant for 1 or 2 units (Count is for Cathars and Zogross is for Armocs or Greenscales).

General Kuah
Einar

Kyrie
Unique Hero
Warrior
Militaristic
MEDIUM 5

Life 6
Move 5
Range 1
Attack 4
Defense 3
Points 130

EINAR’S ORDERS
Before taking a turn with General Kuah, you may take a turn with any Kyrie Squad or Hero you control that follows Einar.

SWIFT VENGEANCE 13
After a Soldier you control that follows Einar is destroyed, you may move General Kuah up to 5 spaces as long as he ends his move adjacent to an opponent’s figure. After moving, choose one opponent's figure adjacent to General Kuah and roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 13 or higher, the chosen figure receives one wound.

STEALTH FLYING
When counting spaces for the General Kuah’s movement, ignore elevations. The General Kuah may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. When General Kuah starts to fly, if he is engaged he will not take any leaving engagement attacks.

He fits perfectly into the army everyone wants thematically (EI x2, Empress, General), but now he’s also a little more versatile working with the 10th, Cathars, Romans, and Greeks.

Depending on power, Swift Vengeance could be changed to once per turn, a higher (or lower) d20 roll, or more wounds. His point value could change too, though I like him there because he fits perfectly into the Einar Kyrie build and at anything less the Cathars and 10th can get a 5th Squad and then him.

EDIT: With the d20 he also works with Emperor Andask.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

He fits perfectly into the army everyone wants thematically (EI x2, Empress, General), but now he’s also a little more versatile working with the 10th, Cathars, Romans, and Greeks.

Depending on power, Swift Vengeance could be changed to once per turn, a higher (or lower) d20 roll, or more wounds. His point value could change too, though I like him there because he fits perfectly into the Einar Kyrie build and at anything less the Cathars and 10th can get a 5th Squad and then him.

EDIT: With the d20 he also works with Emperor Andask.

I don't think that this design addresses the heart of the counterarguments against General Kuah. By giving him bonding, he becomes even more intrinsically attached to the Einar Imperium (granted, I do like how he synergizes with Kiova more, since it would increase her viability in that build), along with making him even stronger than he would otherwise be.

The reworked Swift Vengeance avoids the turn interruption problem (and I like how it applies to a broader range of things), but this General Kuah still feels tailor-made for a 500-point army, which leads to a feeling of needing to take that 500-point army.

@Sir Heroscape , I don't remember an answer to the question of availability for an Uncommon Hero, but have you considered that route? One of the weaknesses of the Einar Imperium is a lack of figures (especially at that price), so making a weaker Uncommon or Common Hero that lets players field multiples would help fill out starting zones, more subtly helping out the army whilst avoiding centralizing power in one specific unit.

Also, as an Uncommon Hero, I think that there would be a much stronger argument for a "band-aid" unit to not be forcing a specific army composition, since players could mix and match different ratios of the new unit to Einar Imperium squads, along with throwing in Kiova or even leaving her out. Since the Imperium did already get their "cheerleader," I think that you'd find less resistance if you went with something along those lines, with less outright aid to the Imperium but simply working well with them.

For example, here's a rough idea:

Einar Praelia
Uncommon Hero
Kyrie

3 Life
5 Move
1 Range
2 Attack
5 Defense
40 Points

Combat Challenge
If an opponent's figure that is adjacent to at least one Einar Praelia that you control attacks with a normal or special attack, it must attack an Einar Praelia.

Royal Doctrine
After revealing an Order Marker on and taking a turn with an Empress that you control, you may move up to 2 Einar Praelias that you control 5 spaces each.

Naturally, this idea isn't balanced or polished yet, but you could easily take 3 Praelias for 120 points, fitting into 2x EI and Empress Kiova, or you could experiment with 2x Praelias and 3x EI, only Kiova and Praelias, et cetera.

These guys help the Imperium without a doubt, but they do it in a different way by simply focusing on keeping the expensive soldiers alive. 5 Defense is very respectable, and it becomes pretty tough to break through when coupled with Empress Kiova. Combat Challenge, coupled with a movement power, will keep the Imperium alive while still leaving weaknesses against spread-out armies or range.

The movement ability could use some work (I'm not overly fond of tying it down specifically to Empress Kiova, but I think it's better than tying it to the Imperium and including Emperors may get a little dicey with Zelrig), and balancing such a cheap Uncommon Hero will be difficult. Thankfully, you can drastically reduce their attack if they're very effective at keeping the Imperium alive, without much fear for the viability of the overall army.

My apologies for the long text, but I hope that it was helpful. The Einar Imperium have a special place in my heart despite me only using them when CUC edits are allowed, and after reading the discussion over in the Pre-SoV thread, I'm inclined to think that a solid Uncommon Hero may be the way to go.

EDIT: Totally forgot that any version of the mini should have Flying, if not Stealth Flying. That throws a wrench into balancing quite a bit, especially if the hero needs to be cheaper, but tying their movement efficiency to Empresses/Emperors helps ensure that they won't be too powerful in other builds, along with a low attack. I personally think that all of Einar's Kyries should have Stealth Flying, which would help these guys reposition, but I could see one of their weaknesses being unable to safely disengage from their targets.

[superfrog]

Somehow, Kyrie seem to me to be limited to common squads (1 per valkyrie general), and unique heroes. I would balk at a common or uncommon hero or a unique squad.

Could be just me, but my gut doesn't like it.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Somehow, Kyrie seem to me to be limited to common squads (1 per valkyrie general), and unique heroes. I would balk at a common or uncommon hero or a unique squad.

Could be just me, but my gut doesn't like it.

I would personally argue that this is because Uncommon Heroes didn't exist in Classic HeroScape, and Kyries didn't exist in Dungeons and Dragons. While there are some patterns that I've seen between the Kyries (namely a 110 point squad for each general that Einar ruined), I don't think a clear one exists for Kyrie Heroes.

We got Kelda, Raelin (and Raelin 2, but that doesn't quite count), and Concan for Jandar, Taelord and Runa for Utgar, Saylind and Atlaga for Ullar... I don't see much consistency in the Kyrie Heroes at all, beyond maybe each general being intended to have three Unique ones. Now that Uncommon Heroes exist (I'd agree that a Common Kyrie Hero sounds a little weird, but it's still an option), I think it's perfectly fine to design an Uncommon Kyrie Hero.

[Sheep]

Could we all face the fact that if a ~120pt Einar Kyrie Hero is made that Einar army is going to happen naturally no matter what? I don’t think anyone is really trying to tailor General Kuah to that army, but the fact of the matter is that the EI are so expensive that there’s literally no other way that army can be built at 500pts. EI x2 and Kiova is 370pts. That’s not a lot of room for *options* regardless, so unless he has absolutely zero synergy (and maybe even so, since he’ll still get Kiov’a gift) with the Imperium, that Army is so stuffed already there’s no other way around it.

One could argue the version I posted would be even better with the other units since they’re all squads of 4 and like being drafted with 3-5 squads in an army. That’s gonna give Kuah 12-20 Vengeance chances compared to 6.

I personally love Combat Challenge as an ability. It’s seriously too bad it got stuck on an underloooked unit. And the Uncommon Hero idea is one I’m personally not against even though it is unprecedented in the Kyrie world. I would definitely love to hear more judges opinions on that because @Astroking112 ’s design is solid. It does leaves OM management in that Army hard. I would like to see Royal Doctrine simply say Kyrie who follows Einar. All of AK’s army ideas are still viable like that: EI x2, Kiova, EP x3; Kiova, EP x10; EI x3, EP x2.

If the idea of a Kyrie Uncommon Hero isn’t liked by the judges, people are going to have to accept the fact that really no matter what point value he comes in at and even whether or not he bonds and/or synergizes with the Imperium, Kiova, EI x2 and him (+whatever filler points are left over) are going to be the build players WANT to put him in.

Spoiler Alert!

Btw, I keep bringing this up but Kiova, Kuah, And EI x2 is not the only Einar Kyrie-Kuah build players could put Kuah in with the version I posted. Thematically, that build is going to happen 100% of the time as long as Kuah comes in at/under 130pts. Non-thematically, you could run Raelin, Kuah, EI x2; Kuah, EI x2, Rats x2; Kiova, Kuah, XXXpts filler.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

Could we all face the fact that if a ~120pt Einar Kyrie Hero is made that Einar army is going to happen naturally no matter what? I don’t think anyone is really trying to tailor General Kuah to that army, but the fact of the matter is that the EI are so expensive that there’s literally no other way that army can be built at 500pts. EI x2 and Kiova is 370pts. That’s not a lot of room for *options* regardless, so unless he has absolutely zero synergy (and maybe even so, since he’ll still get Kiov’a gift) with the Imperium, that Army is so stuffed already there’s no other way around it.

I completely agree. The Einar Imperium pose a unique problem simply because of how expensive they are, which poses a great strain on the army building process and leaves little room for variety.

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

One could argue the version I posted would be even better with the other units since they’re all squads of 4 and like being drafted with 3-5 squads in an army. That’s gonna give Kuah 12-20 Vengeance chances compared to 6.

I definitely think that the version you posted works better with a broader variety of units, but I would probably want to always take some fashion of Einar Kyries with him to take advantage of the bonding. Swift Vengeance would certainly be more potent when throwing him in as a standalone hero in other builds, though.

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

I personally love Combat Challenge as an ability. It’s seriously too bad it got stuck on an underloooked unit. And the Uncommon Hero idea is one I’m personally not against even though it is unprecedented in the Kyrie world. I would definitely love to hear more judges opinions on that because @Astroking112 ’s design is solid. It does leaves OM management in that Army hard. I would like to see Royal Doctrine simply say Kyrie who follows Einar. All of AK’s army ideas are still viable like that: EI x2, Kiova, EP x3; Kiova, EP x10; EI x3, EP x2.

I agree about Combat Challenge. The power could have some really interesting applications, but we never really saw it outside of Tandros Kreel. I think it might work best on Uncommon units, since people typically take multiples but don't base an army around them like they do with Common stuff, which gives Uncommon Combat Challenge units a unique niche of protection to fill (along with the durability to back it up).

I completely forgot that Empress Kiova is still counted as a Warrior and not an Empress. It's somewhat of a pity, because I think the flavor of an Emperor or Empress being required to move Praelias is fitting whilst still being restrictive, but it can't be.

I do like being able to combo them solely with Imperium from an army building perspective since it provides many more ways to use them well, but I wasn't sure if that would be too powerful in practice. Anything like that would probably come through in playtesting. I would probably suggest using Disciplined Kyrie Army Cards instead of Einar Kyrie Army Cards (along with giving these guys a different personality), just to avoid people only taking 3 Praelias and moving all three of them each turn as a standalone 120 filler.

Really, though, accepting an Uncommon Einar Kyrie Hero would greatly improve the design freedom in "fixing" the Imperium. Even something completely different than the Einar Praelia could still be used to great effect to help Einar's Kyries, and I personally think that the miniature looks more like an elite Einar soldier than a general (and, of all the generals, I think that elite soldiers make the most sense for Einar). If the SoV Judges are okay with considering it, I think that an Uncommon Hero could be the way to go.

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

If the idea of a Kyrie Uncommon Hero isn’t liked by the judges, people are going to have to accept the fact that really no matter what point value he comes in at and even whether or not he bonds and/or synergizes with the Imperium, Kiova, EI x2 and him (+whatever filler points are left over) are going to be the build players WANT to put him in.

I'd agree and point towards things like Omegacron or Spartacus and the Capuans as an example. Both of those seem tailor-made for a specific build, be it 3x Repulsors and 2x Snipers or 3x Capuans and Crixus, with very little room for variation. Sure, you could take Zetacron and another squad of Repulsors or substitute Crixus in for Retiarius, but there were definitive 500-point builds for each of those armies. It happens sometimes, but the future addition of more units to the faction would still increase variety. Another Unique Einar Kyrie Hero in addition to an Uncommon one to fix the Imperium would do wonders for fleshing out the faction and creating considerable variety, but that isn't possible if a single unit isn't allowed to pass in the first place.

[Kinseth]

I wouldnt design anything that had direct synergy/bonding with EI.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

I wouldnt design anything that had direct synergy/bonding with EI.

Would some form of Disciplined Kyrie Movement Bonding (or any other less direct ways of helping the Einar Imperium and/or Empress Kiova) bother you? While it would be designed to work with the Imperium, it could be like the Nakita Agents wherein that is not what defines the unit.

Using the rough Einar Praelia idea again as an example, I think that an Uncommon Hero with Combat Challenge and solid defense has a niche, but it could work best with Disciplined Kyries with a movement power (along with the unit following Einar giving Kiova more use). Something along those lines could have a broader use in the game whilst still helping the Imperium ever so slightly.

[Sir Heroscape]

Thank you for those involved in the Discussion for Kuah. I’ll be posting my thoughts a little later...don’t have time now just wanted to let you know I appreciate it and will be back for further discussion later tonight.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Einar Praelia
Uncommon Hero
Kyrie

3 Life
5 Move
1 Range
2 Attack
5 Defense
40 Points

Combat Challenge
If an opponent's figure that is adjacent to at least one Einar Praelia that you control attacks with a normal or special attack, it must attack an Einar Praelia.

Royal Doctrine
After revealing an Order Marker on and taking a turn with an Empress that you control, you may move up to 2 Einar Praelias that you control 5 spaces each.

Wanted to drop by and say this is actually pretty close to what I imagined when I mentioned the possibility of an Uncommon Hero, including Combat Challenge. While I've mulled over the design I reread the Unit Strategy Review for the EI and it seems that they benefit most from having a sturdy defensive unit to take hits for them (which makes sense - they're the elite damage-dealing soldiers, not meant to be attacked back), and Combat Challenge (or even A Coward's Reward, to tie down groups and keep them from taking on the EI) would be beneficial on a frontline bruiser. If the Unique Hero route is taken, add in a Swift Vengeance variation primarily for movement, secondarily for additional bruising to help expensive squads (maybe make it work for any destroyed Kyrie to keep the synergy non-specific), and you'll have a viable unit who synergizes more through gameplay than specific buffs.