The Pre-SoV Workshop

[superfrog]

Nice figure find!

Here's my thoughts:

Flocking shouldn't be a different power if it shares the name. It's also confusing to have two different conditions for movement in your army.

Shoot together is great, but it's kind of unclear whether or not the second archer is taking an actual turn. All attacks have to be made during the attacking figure's turn for rules reasons (see Zaeus' attack bonding).

[Scytale]

I like the idea quite a bit, but you cannot have another figure attack during a turn. It causes all sorts of rules trouble. You can give them Attack Bonding, which we have on some C3V units.

I also agree with superfrog about Flocking. It's great that you're reusing that, but you need to have the same conditions on this version.

[Pumpkin_King]

I like him very much. It's a little telling that the feedback is only wording issues, I think. We do need more Raptorans.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Nice figure find!

Here's my thoughts:

Flocking shouldn't be a different power if it shares the name. It's also confusing to have two different conditions for movement in your army.

Shoot together is great, but it's kind of unclear whether or not the second archer is taking an actual turn. All attacks have to be made during the attacking figure's turn for rules reasons (see Zaeus' attack bonding).

Originally Posted by Scytale

I like the idea quite a bit, but you cannot have another figure attack during a turn. It causes all sorts of rules trouble. You can give them Attack Bonding, which we have on some C3V units.

I also agree with superfrog about Flocking. It's great that you're reusing that, but you need to have the same conditions on this version.

I like the thematic power name of Flocking but I wanted to give more motivation to but OM's on the Archers because of their more general moving ability - hence the wording change - but I understand why it has to be the same if the name is the same. What if I were to change the specials so that they read:
Raptorian Movement Bonding
Before taking a turn with a Beakface Archer, you may move up to 2 Raptorian figures you control up to 6 spaces each. No more than 2 Raptorians can be moved using Raptorian Movement Bonding per Order Marker revealed.

Beakface Archer Attack Bonding
After taking a turn with a Beakface Archer, you may take a turn with up to 1 other Beakface Archer you control. During this turn a Beakface Archer may not move. Beakface Archers activated by Beakface Archer Attack Bonding may take a turn if they were activated using the Raptorian Movement Bonding special ability.

I know that that's kind of a crude start...but do you get where I'm going with those changes? Too complicated? Help?

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Raptorian Movement Bonding
Before taking a turn with a Beakface Archer, you may move up to 2 Raptorian figures you control up to 6 spaces each. No more than 2 Raptorians can be moved using Raptorian Movement Bonding per Order Marker revealed.

Beakface Archer Attack Bonding
After taking a turn with a Beakface Archer, you may take a turn with up to 1 other Beakface Archer you control. During this turn a Beakface Archer may not move. Beakface Archers activated by Beakface Archer Attack Bonding may take a turn if they were activated using the Raptorian Movement Bonding special ability.

Not quite right. The last line of Archer Attack Bonding really makes things confusing, turning movement bonding into attack-only turns. You really need to go with something simpler. Maybe something like:

Improved Flocking
Before taking a turn with a Beakface Archer, you may either move up to 2 Raptorian figures you control up to 6 spaces each or you may take a turn with one other Raptorian Hero you control. If you take a turn with a Raptorian Hero, that Raptorian Hero may not move.

Though really, you can probably take the last sentence off of that and make for a really interesting unit.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Not quite right. The last line of Archer Attack Bonding really makes things confusing, turning movement bonding into attack-only turns. You really need to go with something simpler. Maybe something like:

Though really, you can probably take the last sentence off of that and make for a really interesting unit.

Wow! And that's why we have his workshop. I think that change covers what I was trying to go for but I just wasn't quite getting it. I think that's much simpler, thematic, and adds some fun, interesting ways to play the unit.

[Ixe]

The Beakface Archer is interesting. I agree that the little common hero would need some reason to take Order Markers in a sneak army and I think extra movement and attack is the right idea for that. Given that the archer is ranged, I think regular flocking would be worth testing on it since it's not hard to attack anyway with that threat range.

Even with all that, I'm not sure about their value over just having more sneaks. Improved flocking would make them helpful for getting the army set up but it doesn't look like they'll last long against ranged (where the sneaks thrive) or really help the sneaks' weakness against melee. I'm just not sure about them given that they are effectively twice the cost of the sneaks. I could be misreading them since I have similarly underestimated the sneaks.

[The Dewk]

As the saying goes, "variety is the spice of life". And one of the biggest areas lacking variety in this game is the lack of 10 point filler units. Don't get me wrong, Isamu is great, and I love to use Otonashi when I select Vydar in General Wars format, but the options end there. I've dabbled with creating and testing customs, but I felt this should be my first posted for consideration, as it is most "needed" in the game. With that said, I present to you General Einar's 10 point filler, Bol!



Theme/Bio: "General Gallus! General Awa! Apologies for interrupting, but we captured a goblin spy in one of the inner camps! He offered no fight, but demanded to be brought to you." The tiny prisoner was thrown to his knees before the Einar tacticians. "Not a spy." he muttered as he rose to his feet, and repeated, more forcefully "NOT a spy. Recruit. Ally." The deep laugh from General Gallus was as unnerving as it was rare. "A goblin ally? Do you take me for a fool? Soldier, take this cutter away and do whatever is necessary to extract the truth." But Awa motioned for the soldier to stay "Let us hear him out, Marcus. He did make it to the inner camps without detection or mayhem. Goblin, what is your name?" The goblin uttered a single syllable: "Bol".

"Bol?", questioned the samurai.

"Bol. Big gruts say "No battle today, let's kick the bol!""

"I see. Well, Bol, what made you think we wouldn't kill you on the spot?"

"Bol hear that Einar like skill, no care about past. Bol have skill. Skill for Einar. No more Utgar hurt."

"This is ridiculo..." started General Gallus, but was interrupted as the goblin revealed and offered up a parchment he had, until that moment, kept hidden.

"Bol no read, but maybe important".

The generals took the parchment and peered over it. It was General Awa that was laughing this time, while General Gallus uttered, dumbfounded, "Utgar's troop movements for the next fortnight..."

Creativity: Hailing from Eberron like other goblins, Bol uses his small stature and scrappy frame to be a tricky opportunist - whether it's ankle-shanking large foes or swiping things that look important (or running away when things are looking too hairy). Just as Utgar has been known to recruit the normally Aquilla-aligned dwarves to his armies, Einar has gotten great use out of this ex-cutter.

Accessibility: This little guy comes from the D&D Miniatures line "Monster Menagerie 2", released earlier this year. Named "Goblin 3", there are 100+ sculpts available for less than $5 (he even has a handy alternate - it is the exact sculpt, but he simply has an ax instead of a sword, and a hat).

Balance: I have tested out a few versions of Bol. Among other things, he's had an anti-range ability, Phantom Walk, Hide in Darkness, and his Ankle Shank ability worked on Medium figures as well. For a brief time, his Sneak Thief ability even worked for all units, not just heroes. But this version seems best for his 10 point price tag. I don't believe that, in a vacuum, he'd be favored to destroy Isamu 1 on 1, but that wasn't my objective when designing Bol. My objective was to create a solid, balanced figure that could compete for the 10 point slot in an army. Like Isamu (and Otonashi), sometimes his abilities aren't relevant. But other times they make for a very exciting endgame.
Sneak Thief is probably the strongest and most interesting of his abilities, with one of my comrades commenting "It's nice to have a bit of Order Marker insurance". Although he often will not get a single OM in this way, he also could receive a handful. Limiting it to heroes within 12 clear site spaces was considered, but never was applied.
Large and Huge heroes are semi-popular, so Ankle Shank can have its uses. In one of my tests, it came down to Bol vs a wounded Su-Bak-Na. Although he didn't quite finish the bone dragon, the Ankle Shank ability was fun to hold my breath over when rolling dice.
Lastly, unless I missed something big, there are only minor synergies associated with his characteristics, nothing overpowered.

Playability: Bol is (in my opinion, of course) the definition of playability. Goblins are fun. 10 point fillers are needed all the time. Doesn't even need to be rebased if you don't want to.


So what do you all think? I hope to put forth a submission into the highly esteemed SoV someday; am I on the right track?

[Scytale]

The biggest problem with 10pt filler is Isamu. You pretty much need to be as ridiculous as him (which we wouldn't condone) or be overshadowed. Still, there are some General Wars and similar uses, so maybe.

A Height 3 melee unit without Climb/Scale? Almost problematic, but he's only a 10pt filler unit, so ok.

Sneak Thief is the real draw here. A unit like this is only filler anyway; that power can save you in a pitch if things go bad. I quite like it.

Disengage sounds nice, but it's really not all that useful considering when Bol would see use (last minute point grab, maybe, I suppose). I'd rather it wasn't there honestly.

I kinda wish he had a d20 ability to play off of Elaria. Doesn't really matter, I know, but it would at least feel kinda thematic.

My biggest issue is the choice of general. First, Einar is usually more about discipline; a Rogue doesn't fit especially well. Second, it's odd for a Goblin to go to Einar. Neither is strong enough for me to vote against it, but the combination is stretching it.

[Ixe]

Bol seems interesting. I feel that he needs a scale power to move around effectively, although you are getting a little tight on card space. Sneak Thief is an interesting power that means he could actually get some use and give you a reason to try him over the ninjas. I'm not a huge fan of an Einar goblin but you sell it enough for me with the bio.

Ankleshank is cute and I guess it gives him a bit more play but he needs to hit first with his two little attack dice. For what he is, you could probably just get an attack boost instead to make him a bit more useful (auto skull or some such).

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Scytale

The biggest problem with 10pt filler is Isamu. You pretty much need to be as ridiculous as him (which we wouldn't condone) or be overshadowed. Still, there are some General Wars and similar uses, so maybe.

A Height 3 melee unit without Climb/Scale? Almost problematic, but he's only a 10pt filler unit, so ok.

Sneak Thief is the real draw here. A unit like this is only filler anyway; that power can save you in a pitch if things go bad. I quite like it.

Disengage sounds nice, but it's really not all that useful considering when Bol would see use (last minute point grab, maybe, I suppose). I'd rather it wasn't there honestly.

I kinda wish he had a d20 ability to play off of Elaria. Doesn't really matter, I know, but it would at least feel kinda thematic.

My biggest issue is the choice of general. First, Einar is usually more about discipline; a Rogue doesn't fit especially well. Second, it's odd for a Goblin to go to Einar. Neither is strong enough for me to vote against it, but the combination is stretching it.

For me, he, as Ixe puts it 'sells (the Einar Goblin) with the bio' - I think it's really cool. Also - Rogue doesn't fit Einar? You just had a conversation about the Beakface Sneaks.
Honestly, the thing that's bugging me, having read the bio, is that there's nothing that fits the element of the Bio and Creativity description of him 'swiping things that look important'. Perhaps replace Disengage with something that lets him snatch Treasure Glyphs? Maybe taking some inspiration from C3G's Black Cat? There's nothing like that yet in Classic, I believe, and it might give him a little more utility.

[The Dewk]

Originally Posted by Scytale

The biggest problem with 10pt filler is Isamu. You pretty much need to be as ridiculous as him (which we wouldn't condone) or be overshadowed. Still, there are some General Wars and similar uses, so maybe.

A Height 3 melee unit without Climb/Scale? Almost problematic, but he's only a 10pt filler unit, so ok.

Sneak Thief is the real draw here. A unit like this is only filler anyway; that power can save you in a pitch if things go bad. I quite like it.

Disengage sounds nice, but it's really not all that useful considering when Bol would see use (last minute point grab, maybe, I suppose). I'd rather it wasn't there honestly.

I kinda wish he had a d20 ability to play off of Elaria. Doesn't really matter, I know, but it would at least feel kinda thematic.

My biggest issue is the choice of general. First, Einar is usually more about discipline; a Rogue doesn't fit especially well. Second, it's odd for a Goblin to go to Einar. Neither is strong enough for me to vote against it, but the combination is stretching it.

All valid points, thank you!
1. Is he as good as Isamu? Possibly not. But Braxas isn't as good as Nilfheim, and is still used almost as much. I just want there to be options

2. Yep, no climb or scale. Considered, but never implemented. I would have no problem trading the semi-irrelevant disengage for the semi-irrelevant climb/scale.

3. Sneak Thief is what makes him playable, the rest is just icing.

4. As mentioned, disengage could be swapped out, no problem.

5. Haha yeah, he once had Hide in Darkness, but since cutting that, no more Elaria synergy.

6. It had to be either Einar or Aquilla. I've always felt that Aquilla is the faction of misfits and second chances, but these misfits and second chances are inherently righteous. While you're correct that Einar is almost always representing a disciplined force, there are exceptions (Dreadgul Raiders and Guilty, for example), and I felt that Einar is also the faction that "does what is necessary for victory", despite that leading to some questionable recruits and mercenaries (Valguard, gladiators, and redcoats, for example). While eyebrow raising, I'm glad it doesn't break the unit for you!

Thank you again!

Originally Posted by Ixe

Bol seems interesting. I feel that he needs a scale power to move around effectively, although you are getting a little tight on card space. Sneak Thief is an interesting power that means he could actually get some use and give you a reason to try him over the ninjas. I'm not a huge fan of an Einar goblin but you sell it enough for me with the bio.

Ankleshank is cute and I guess it gives him a bit more play but he needs to hit first with his two little attack dice. For what he is, you could probably just get an attack boost instead to make him a bit more useful (auto skull or some such).

Thanks for the critiques! Yeah, that's two individuals who recommend scale! So that may very well be a future tweak.
Sneak Thief is the only reason to grab his card over Isamu's; I'm glad you approve!
Ankle Shank actually used to be Sir Denrick's ability, but applied to large units as well. It was stronger in playtesting than the current iteration. If I went back to that, would he be "too good" for 10 points?

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

For me, he, as Ixe puts it 'sells (the Einar Goblin) with the bio' - I think it's really cool. Also - Rogue doesn't fit Einar? You just had a conversation about the Beakface Sneaks.
Honestly, the thing that's bugging me, having read the bio, is that there's nothing that fits the element of the Bio and Creativity description of him 'swiping things that look important'. Perhaps replace Disengage with something that lets him snatch Treasure Glyphs? Maybe taking some inspiration from C3G's Black Cat? There's nothing like that yet in Classic, I believe, and it might give him a little more utility.

Interesting! I had never looked at Black Cat before, thank you. The "swiping things that look important" is touched on in the bio that he grabbed an important looking document, and it ended up being full of orders. So it translates into his power of swiping Order Markers (from dead heroes. Haha).