The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Kinseth]

Yeah, Warlord is a head scratcher.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Dysole

Seeing the OM reveal on the dragon would make it tougher to work with greenscales but I could easily see that being mitigated somewhat with good OM placement. Rats become far more worrying as a screen or really any other unit that can hold it's own and keep Nilfheim from being engaged (knights). Being able to encourage dragon builds without greenscales (or other bonding units for other dragons) is a good thing.

I can see the concern. When played well, she could definitely be used with other strong armies like the Greenscales, albeit it is still very limiting to combine the two. I think that it's often best to just focus on Eltris when one can, especially since she's likely be adjacent to her dragon at most times, which makes it difficult to fully protect her like one can Raelin. Good screens could definitely help mitigate that.

I'd also test Braxas and Quahon with Raelin and screen as well (Quahon liking the screen more). Charos is also worth testing against melee builds with decent support and Moltenclaw with an extra die could be very useful. If those dragons aren't unbalanced (my typical measure of concern is the army is able to beat other really good armies without needing amazing dice), I'd say maybe a couple brief games with Othkurik, Mimsy, and Brimstone just for sanity's sake.

Raelin can make many units very frustrating, but as a part of the game, she'll need to be considered especially since she often shows up in top tier dragon builds.

I've yet to play with Quahon, but I'll definitely proxy both her and Brimstone to get some games in. Charos is a definite concern of mine against builds like the knights, but he's always very strong against them if they don't bring some more well-rounded back-up. I'll run that one (and a few other melee builds) more times to make sure that it doesn't feel overly unfair to them.

I'm absolutely going to test games with Raelin. I was just light-heartedly pointing out how she almost always makes my games less fun to play, no matter what units are there.

As for changing the name of the power, it's already a different power than Eternal Heartbreak since it names "Dragon Ally" rather than "Cyprien Esenwein" so it'd get changed anyways.

As for Pern, it's solid but there's a loooooot of books. Having not read Eragon, I can't comment on how similar they are.

Good point on the differences to the power. I thought that keeping the name the same would be best for instant recognizability, but there are plenty of examples of very similar (if not outright identical) powers getting their own name for different reasons. Keeping the "Heartbreak" in the name (along with how similar it is to Sonya's power) should be enough, I think.

Even if I don't get the chance to try out Pern, I enjoy checking out different books and taking a look at them. I do doubt I'd read all of them, though, even if I do like the series.

One last note, I like this unit and think the idea and flavor are solid. Assuming you've tested it properly, the biggest opposition you're likely to encounter is of the flavor " dragons don't really need the help and I worry this makes them too good". I received similar pushback from Executioner and rats, but because I'd done enough playtesting to know she didn't wreck anything and the base concept was good enough, she was able to make it through to testing stage where the judges were able to determine she didn't unbalance rats or other soulborg builds. So, my recommendation to you is to make sure you've got this unit right before you submit it to minimize the amount of pushback you could receive from a unit that makes dragons better (albeit in an interesting way in my opinion).

~Dysole, who will admit she's not psychic and unable to determine if other issues would arise, but right now she sees that as the biggest one

Thanks for the advice and suggestions. Executioner 616 feels like a good parallel to take note of, and I'll be sure to get plenty of tests in to ensure that she's as close to perfect as can be before I submit her.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Dragons are not something that needs a boost, but this booster seems well thought out. That 65 pts is no small thing to add to a Dragon to boost its stats. It seems dangerously potent, but also costly enough that it may not be broken. The bit about revealing an Order Marker for Passenger is brilliant in that it prevents the Greenscales-Dragon-Eltris combo.

"Warlord" feels out of place. I get that you're going for synergy, but it just doesn't fit with the unit, neither the class nor the synergy. The Dragon focus is all this unit wants or needs.

If your version of Eternal Heartbreak has a different number, you do have to give it a different name, if only adding a "3" at the end. I'm not sure if keeping the name "Eternal Heartbreak" is the better way to go or not, since it cares about a different unit, but I at least like the attempt to keep the name the same. This is something we could hash out between the ERB and Editing if the unit passes.

Thanks for your thoughts. I appreciate the honest feedback on the Warlord class: I was hesitant to make a unit that can only ever be played one way (especially in such a passive manner), but I can see how also making her bond complicates the design. If my testing shows that she's fine without bonding, "Dragon Rider" could also be simplified to only affect her dragon and her base stats could be increased to further simplify the powers.

I am leaning towards changing the name of "Eternal Heartbreak," since it does affect a different unit anyways.

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Really cool figure, I'd leave heartbreak at 2 and call it a day there.

Thanks for the feedback! That's the first change that comes to mind if she's too weak, but if she's too strong, I might even make it work both ways so that her death can wound the Dragon Ally, too.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I like the idea of reusing Eternal Heartbreak, and I have a suggestion for solving the riddle of how to make it work.

I always understood the "Eternal" to be a reference to Sonya's - and Cyprien's - nature as undying creatures of the night. Simply rename the power "Heartbreak," and you will have both the reference to that power and the freedom to tweak it as needed.

Thanks for the suggestion! I'm a little hesitant to go with a plain "Heartbreak," since I feel like it might restrict the design space somewhat and Sonya set a precedent of having "<adjective> Heartbreak," but if I can't think of an adjective that feels perfect, none would probably be best.

Originally Posted by superfrog

I like the unit as well, and I also think that Warlord seems shoehorned onto the card.

Obviously it's hard to judge the balance of a card like this just by Theoryscape, so I'd be extra diligent on the playtesting before submitting if I were you.

Thanks for the feedback. I'll be very cautious when playtesting, so it may be a little while before I get to submit her, but it'll definitely get done.

[flameslayer93]

Why not Rider’s Heartbreak?

[BiggaBullfrog]

I'm late to the party this time, but thought I'd chime in. While Eltris looks fine mechanically (other than the Warlord, as others have said (I'm all for an Elf Warlord and think that would be awesome, but don't think this is the unit for it)), I'm finding her jarring thematically.

While I understand the desire for a dragon rider, I don't think a hero who can partner up with any dragon is the way to go. First off, most of Heroscape dragons are from Icaria. They've never met an elf before, so why would they let one ride them around, especially when they were Kings, Queens and Emperors on their home planet? I don't see Nilfheim saying "Sure, get on my back" when his bio says: "Icarians have always worshiped the dragons of their world as godlike creatures; but no dragon has ever been held in higher honor than King Nilfhiem." Why would dragons of such a high status let a stranger from another planet just hop on? Those dragons who are from a DnD planet and know what an elf is would probably sooner eat her than let her ride, since they're all evil-aligned.

With that, I find it unthematic that she can synergize with any dragon, give it a boost and get a boost from it, and then have a heartbreak harsh enough to wound her when it dies. It's way to unspecific to sell that tight of a bond. Greenscales can get away with it because they're lizards who follow any big lizard, and they get the boost from the big lizard, not the other way around. Eltris is a single rider who should have a bond with a single dragon, not a swinger who has a different companion from game to game.

Finally, I find the way she will play unthematic as well. Right now she just rides a dragon, acting as a cheerleader until it dies. You could try activating her, but why would you when you have a dragon? I feel like it would be better to have a complementary menacer duo.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Yeah, the Dragonrider should do something!

If I were to design one, I'd look for a small figure with some sort of ranged attack. Suggested powers besides Carry: Being able to attack on the Dragon's turn (possibly being less likely to hit and/or unable to attack a unit adjacent to the Dragon, no unit being allowed to have height advantage over it, and extra Defense die when adjacent to the Dragon. Then insert Chimera for Dragon.

But that"s just me . . .

[Dad_Scaper]

Well, I think the theme is the young dragon-befriending rider. The heroes from those stories aren't great archers or anything; they're just young persons who befriend dragons. I like the theme, and the idea that what the hero has to offer the dragon is that the two together are better than the sum of the parts.

Though Warlord feels like a poor fit. That's an easy change.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Why not Rider’s Heartbreak?

That's one of the considerations. I like it slightly more than just "Heartbreak," but there's always the chance that something else might sound nicer, especially if I end up changing her class to be Rider to disrupt the bonding options.

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

While I understand the desire for a dragon rider, I don't think a hero who can partner up with any dragon is the way to go. First off, most of Heroscape dragons are from Icaria. They've never met an elf before, so why would they let one ride them around, especially when they were Kings, Queens and Emperors on their home planet? I don't see Nilfheim saying "Sure, get on my back" when his bio says: "Icarians have always worshiped the dragons of their world as godlike creatures; but no dragon has ever been held in higher honor than King Nilfhiem." Why would dragons of such a high status let a stranger from another planet just hop on? Those dragons who are from a DnD planet and know what an elf is would probably sooner eat her than let her ride, since they're all evil-aligned.

With that, I find it unthematic that she can synergize with any dragon, give it a boost and get a boost from it, and then have a heartbreak harsh enough to wound her when it dies. It's way to unspecific to sell that tight of a bond. Greenscales can get away with it because they're lizards who follow any big lizard, and they get the boost from the big lizard, not the other way around. Eltris is a single rider who should have a bond with a single dragon, not a swinger who has a different companion from game to game.

Finally, I find the way she will play unthematic as well. Right now she just rides a dragon, acting as a cheerleader until it dies. You could try activating her, but why would you when you have a dragon? I feel like it would be better to have a complementary menacer duo.

I don't find the theme to be any more jarring than Romans bonding with the Marro or Death Knights with any Relentless hero, but I get that everyone draws boundaries at different places. That was one of my main concerns with the theme (being that there are no dragons on Feylund nor Elves on Icaria as far as I'm aware), but I believe that this can be circumvented in the bio.

I also think that it's reasonable to expect her to have formed this bond with a dragon after arriving in Valhalla, much like Valguard got his lizard arm after being summoned. I agree with @Dad_Scaper 's interpretation: she's a younger rider who simply befriended one of the giant dragons summoned to Valhalla, and they both benefit from each other. Yes, there's some inherit theme-breaks or head-scratchers possible (like seeing her with Brimstone or Mimring), but I think that the potential gameplay could outweigh these.

As a last note, I personally don't view individual games as being canon. It might just be me, but I've always viewed the Greenscales/MacDirks as having one king or highlander, and each game is simply a different instance of a greater war in which it was a different unit. Of course, I could always design a specific dragon for Eltris to complement instead, but I think that this would end up restricting each of them more, and I honestly prefer the wide range of options that a design like this can promote.

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

Yeah, the Dragonrider should do something!

If I were to design one, I'd look for a small figure with some sort of ranged attack. Suggested powers besides Carry: Being able to attack on the Dragon's turn (possibly being less likely to hit and/or unable to attack a unit adjacent to the Dragon, no unit being allowed to have height advantage over it, and extra Defense die when adjacent to the Dragon. Then insert Chimera for Dragon.

But that"s just me . . .

I'd be concerned about the power levels of allowing a dragon like Nilfheim (or just about any of the other ones) to get in another attack per turn, honestly, especially if it's ranged. I'd also agree with Dad_Scaper again about Dragon Riders not being known for being great archers, but to be fair one of my main inspirations is the tale of a mere farm boy being thrown into the life. I do appreciate your suggestions, though.

Unless I'm mistaken, the only Chimera is Racheim, right? I've never used him and while he certainly seems dragon-like, I'm not too concerned about including him as an option.

[Dad_Scaper]

I 100% agree that it's ok for some of the bonding options (Braxas, for instance) to be unlikely partners for a farmhand who befriended a dragon. That's part of what makes Heroscape special, is that two thematic units can, by virtue of the mechanics, be an unlikely pair.

[wriggz]

I kind of like the theme (hate the Warlord thing). Maybe only add to the Move and defense indicating that the rider is a second set of eyes?

Maybe have the dragon take a turn off the rider (this would remove any issue with greenscales) Also the Bonus could be dependent on there being Order Markers on the rider's card?

Dragon Rider:
After revealing an order marker on this card instead of taking a turn with Eltris, you may take a turn with the chosen Dragon. During that turn the dragon may move one additional space and after moving the Dragon you may place Eltris adjacent to the Dragon.

Simple and now you take a risk in loosing Order Markers when Eltris dies.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by wriggz

Maybe have the dragon take a turn off the rider (this would remove any issue with greenscales) Also the Bonus could be dependent on there being Order Markers on the rider's card?

Dragon Rider:
After revealing an order marker on this card instead of taking a turn with Eltris, you may take a turn with the chosen Dragon. During that turn the dragon may move one additional space and after moving the Dragon you may place Eltris adjacent to the Dragon.

Simple and now you take a risk in loosing Order Markers when Eltris dies.

Oh wow, I like that. I think you’ve got something there!

[BiggaBullfrog]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I don't find the theme to be any more jarring than Romans bonding with the Marro or Death Knights with any Relentless hero, but I get that everyone draws boundaries at different places. That was one of my main concerns with the theme (being that there are no dragons on Feylund nor Elves on Icaria as far as I'm aware), but I believe that this can be circumvented in the bio.

I also think that it's reasonable to expect her to have formed this bond with a dragon after arriving in Valhalla, much like Valguard got his lizard arm after being summoned. I agree with @Dad_Scaper 's interpretation: she's a younger rider who simply befriended one of the giant dragons summoned to Valhalla, and they both benefit from each other. Yes, there's some inherit theme-breaks or head-scratchers possible (like seeing her with Brimstone or Mimring), but I think that the potential gameplay could outweigh these.

As a last note, I personally don't view individual games as being canon. It might just be me, but I've always viewed the Greenscales/MacDirks as having one king or highlander, and each game is simply a different instance of a greater war in which it was a different unit. Of course, I could always design a specific dragon for Eltris to complement instead, but I think that this would end up restricting each of them more, and I honestly prefer the wide range of options that a design like this can promote.

See, Romans bonding with any Warlord feels fine - They're following the Warlord which makes sense, not the Warlord following them. And Death Knights are in a similar boat, although the theme of bonding with any Relentless Hero isn't great thematically and is something I would take an issue with if someone tried to pass it through the SoV. Greenscales/MacDirks are in a similar boat. They're peons who will follow whoever is the biggest lizard/dude around. Dragons are another story. Again, we're talking kings, queens, and emperors regarded as deities, and it feels off to have them allow a stranger ride them when there's nothing that's suggested them as mounts.

Sure, you can say she made friends with them after coming to Valhalla, but I think it's too much of a leap to say that she has a synergistic bond with any dragon she meets that will break her heart so much she takes damage when she dies. Cyprien and Sonya have been a couple for who knows how long before they were summoned to Valhalla. Again, if you want to bring bios into it, "Lady Esenwein has sworn her allegiance and her life to Cyprien and Cyprien alone." That justifies things a lot more than "Eltris came to Valhalla, thought dragons were cool, and hopped on each one she met, but when it died a part of her died too."

Also, I'm even stronger against her being from Feylund, if that's where you're trying to go with her. There aren't dragons on Feylund, and that makes it even harder to sell your theme, which is already shaky at best.

I'm not against cross-synergies, I think they're fun and cool, but they need to be done right. While I think your concept has some good potential, the card has not sat well with me since I looked it over, and I'm bringing it up now as a heads up before you get to the point where you want to submit her.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I 100% agree that it's ok for some of the bonding options (Braxas, for instance) to be unlikely partners for a farmhand who befriended a dragon. That's part of what makes Heroscape special, is that two thematic units can, by virtue of the mechanics, be an unlikely pair.

The problem I have is that all of the dragons are an "unlikely pair" for her. They're all either from Icaria where they were regarded as "godlike creatures," and thus wouldn't stoop to being someone's mount, or they're dragons who would sooner eat an elf than let her ride. It's possible that it wouldn't be as bad if there were even one good thematic option, but none of them fit.