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Custom Units & Army Cards Fan-created HS army cards for units, glyphs, and equipment |
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#3193
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
You seem to think that the +1/+1 for any dragon isn't enough of a reason to price her at 50 points just for that reason alone. Raising the bases stats of any dragon is a pretty big deal, especially when you can still bring Raelin along for even more defense. Her attack could be 0, or 4, and it wouldn't affect her price by more than 10 point in my mind, because her attack won't be the reason she's worth using. Her own defense is far more important, and I like that she is quite vulnerable when she's separated from the dragon, but that doesn't really matter, because unless you are dealing with Hops, Chainfighters, Warforged, or Wyverns, there will never be a reason that they wouldn't be within each other's stat boost range. She will need to be priced as though she will always be used with her best possible companion, which ever Dragon that is, because the stats boost is that good.
I view the way you currently have the movement mechanics as a good way of limiting her potential, because it means that if you want to keep the attack bonus, you can't move very far. My Custom Designs.
--------------- Check out my maps. --------------- Get general Valkrill's symbol in SVG vector format. |
#3194
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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I agree that her own attack has little bearing on her price, especially because these alterations to make her feel more active also make her weaker in some key ways as well. To my knowledge, the argument isn't over whether a usable attack makes her too powerful, but rather it's in line with the design and theme. Balance is another topic altogether that I don't expect people to believe me about without playing the unit. Outside of units that can move opponents, which can really prey on her, she also struggles a lot against explosive Special Attacks (the temporary loss of positioning is often worth avoiding letting her and her dragon get attacked at once). In my testing, I've found Nilfheim to be the best companion (of course), but spending 240 points on him isn't usually worth the stat boost when you could build a better army instead. Regardless, Nilfheim's one of the main reasons that I feel like she should be going down this route. All of these changes, with the exception of the movement boost (which will be adjusted if it tests as being too strong), benefit Nilfheim less than the other dragons. He'll already be using his base 6 normal attack (+1 for 7), so the possibility for getting an attack of up to 6 with Eltris is nearly worthless to him. On the other hand, dragons like Zelrig, Othkurik, Mimring, and Brimstone get a little bit more options, of which only Zelrig is a large concern (although the capability of Eltris getting in an extra die than him is, as mentioned, not too significant on her balance). Throw in the sizable risk of losing your turns by placing Order Markers on her instead of the dragon, and the Nilfheim combo is looking even worse than it was earlier in my testing, which I think is a good change. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#3195
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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Formerly known as capsocrates -- Remixed Master Sets - challenge yourself with new terrain combinations! -- Colorado Fall 2023 Multiplayer Madness -- caps's Customs Redux - caps's multiplayer maps - caps's maps - Seagate -- Continuing Classic Heroscape: C3V SoV |
#3196
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
So I'm sure you remember the first time you ran Eltris through here and I was pretty against her being able to ride any dragon. That hasn't really changed and I think an actual dedicated rider/dragon pair would be a lot cooler than someone who can ride any dragon. It would also open up a lot of space for design and you wouldn't have to worry about making a dragon too strong with any buffs since they'd be designed to work together. That said, I'll give some feedback on the current design as well.
First off, I think you could come up with a better class and personality than Rider and Fearless. They're not bad, but I think there could be better, especially when trying to sell a hardcore dragon rider. Champion and Loyal come to mind. In all honesty, just having her basically be buffed stats to a dragon is pretty boring to me. Stats are fine, but dragons already have good stats and she's kind of pushing into overkill lane where extra stats are redundant. They usually only want more defense and Raelin is there for that. More move is a bad idea, IMO, because dragons are already so dang good at kiting. I am on board with the idea of having her be worth an occasional OM, but if your main focus is stat-boosting I don't think that's going to happen for all of the reasons you've brought up. One way to help her see action is to give her a Bol-like ability that gives her the dragon's OMs after it dies. Unfortunately, that just plays more into the "along for the ride" idea and, while effective, just makes her a rider who waits for the dragon to die to actually do something. Another way to take her beyond being just extra stats and being worth OMs is to give her a Special power or attack that helps the dragons with their weaknesses. For example, if she were to have some kind of power that helps take on tough heroes, there would be more of a partnership as the dragons lay waste with their specials and she challenges any leaders who would threaten the dragon's weak defense. Basically, I agree with you that the +1 attack/defense isn't as powerful as some people may think. But if the purpose of the card is to give a buff that's not that great, then why draft her? I just think she needs to be able to shine as an actual help to a dragon. Monthly Utah Tournaments in SLC!!
Maps | Customs | Battle Reports 10 Points Under Videos "I'll save myself some time and say I pretty much 100% agree with Bigga" ~Flash_19 |
#3197
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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Seriously though, I think Loyal fits decently well with her sculpt, but I think Fearless or even Dauntless fits a little better personally. Maybe Tricky or Valiant if you really want to but I think opening those cans of worms would be unnecessary. I don't know if Champion would be better than Rider, the only other alternatives I can think of would be Warrior or Hunter, but honestly with the introduction of the new riding mechanic, it would be nice to see the new Rider Class to differentiate them, although I doubt Heroscape will ever see more than three Dragon Riders(Perhaps a mage and an archer for the others?). @Astroking112 , from what I can tell of Eltris's abilities, you get +1/+1 to both her and the companion if they are within three spaces, but you only get to take the Dragon's turn, the +1 move boost, and the ability to carry Eltris if they start that turn adjacent to each other. That seems fine to me, however I think it would make more sense and certainly be more effective if you could take the Dragon's turn as long as they start within three spaces(other factors remaining unchanged.). This way, you could take OM 1 to move and attack an enemy hero a short distance away with Eltris, use OM 2 to move her dragon companion adjacent to her and maybe make use of its Special Attack, and take OM 3 to get the heck out of dodge. I think this opens up a lot of interesting tactical possibilities between the two, and makes your next course of action harder to predict. All in all, she looks pretty well put-together. Keep it up! I wish you high rolls, fair winds, and following seas. I am a proud member of Platyfly!, a sketch comedy YouTube channel dedicated to giving Platypi the Flying Special Power! |
#3198
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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I'm not sure that Rider is any significantly worse than Champion, but the class doesn't matter too significantly to me here. I doubt that we'll ever see Elf Champion Bonding or anything like that, so I'm fine with exploring other classes. After thinking about it for a little bit, I actually really like the Loyal personality. Fearless still fits, but given that her design is geared towards choosing a single dragon and sticking with it (and that the dragon could have many varying personalities), a more general Loyalty seems really fitting. I'll make this change on my next pass through the card. Quote:
At the very least, I'm leaning towards cutting it down to either focus on move and attack or attack and defense, which should help address this at least a little bit. Defense and move are definitely the more impactful boosts anyway, since most dragons don't use their normal attack as often. Of the two, I think that defense will probably be more consistently useful (and avoid making kiting problems any worse) and simpler to implement, so I'll probably go back to the old +1/+1. Quote:
I do want her to remain simple, though. Since she's essentially an addition to other units that can already be taken without her, I don't want her to complicate things with crazy new abilities or anything. I do think that the stat boost can work, it just was pretty underpowered from past tests and I felt like she could be improved to have room for a little more activity. Quote:
As for the prospect of additional Riders, I don't have any plans to make more and am not tied to the class. I just want to leave the design space open for anyone else to make their own types of Riders, should they want to. If VC would prefer to see a different non-synergistic class for Eltris other than Rider, I'll have no objections. Quote:
Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#3199
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Here’s a bit of a far fetched idea, and I don’t know if you’ve ever tried it...
Why not let her literally ride the dragon... on it’s card. When the dragon lands, you can have her attempt a dire attack by dismounting and charging. Something like: Dragon Rider After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card, and instead of taking a turn with Eltris, you may plave her figure on the Army Card of an adjacent Huge Dragon you control. After taking a turn with that Dragon, if it attacked a figure, you may place Eltris on an adjacent space and take a turn with her. If you do, she must attack a figure. Sorry, it’s 5 AM and I’m probably too tired to talk shop. My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. |
#3200
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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In fact you could put Eltris’ Att to 3 (which was concerning some at 4) and then give her a special attack or ability that is an Att of 4, conditional upon if you’re attacking a figure engaged with the Dragon hero. Then it’s as if she’s jumping off (hence the mini) and coming down on the opponent or being invigorated to defend the Dragon. I think Flameslaywr has found something here for you. I know personally I’d love taking a hero with this general design with my dragons to literally ride and then pop in the board and Attack. But not just a straight up stat booster. This way you’re getting turns with eltris and she can be more than just a sidelines hero giving help passively. Sir Heroscape's Content
Customs, Maps, Battle Reports YouTube Channel, Trade List, 'Scaper of the Month, Burnout Format Tourney Record: 309 - 141 Online Record: 19 - 22 |
#3201
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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#3202
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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My customs. NE Ohio Tourney - TBA SW Ohio Tourney - NHSD 550 points AotV - Colliding the minis of AotP with the world of HS. |
#3203
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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I might even go so far as --to give her an automatic skull for the dismounting attack --Let her dismount into any empty space within two (three?) clear sight spaces --Name it Dismounting Leap or Leaping Strike or something Basically like she leaps off and comes crashing down on someone. I wish you high rolls, fair winds, and following seas. I am a proud member of Platyfly!, a sketch comedy YouTube channel dedicated to giving Platypi the Flying Special Power! |
#3204
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Sorry for only getting to this now; I was busy with other matters earlier in the day. I do appreciate everyone's responses.
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I decided against letting her attack after the dragon because some like Nilfheim are already multi-attackers, so I didn't like the idea of her flat-out adding another attack to them. That said, this is the first time that anyone has thought of limiting it to only normal attacks, which makes it significantly more interesting. I'm not quite happy with how heavily it encourages Nilfheim (since Quahon and Charos become the only other reasonable choices), but that's possibly the most appealing idea for letting both attack that I've heard yet. I also want to keep the "choose only one dragon" mechanic, to avoid letting her jump from Nilfheim to Zelrig to Othkurik or anything crazy like that. Quote:
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Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
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