The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Weird that 6 Life is OK for a Human but 3 Defense is illegal for a Lawman.
Are there any other hard caps for any other Race, Class, Personality etc.?
It may make it easier for people to design if they know what all the automatic Nays are.

There isn't anything close to consensus in VC when it comes to such things, and is the source of many internal arguments. I can't promise that the rest of VC will be ok with a 6-Life Human, while it didn't even cross my mind that it's unusual.

I don't think that Range 6, Attack 3, or Defense 3 are wrong for a Lawman. Not individually. Combined together they no longer feel like a gunslinger, though, not to me.

[Tornado]

Fair enough. I suppose it is the nature of the beast. Thanks.

[BiggaBullfrog]

I'd rather see 3 Defense than 6 Life for Clayton -- 6 Life sticks out more than 3 Defense.

I didn't get to review Clayton, so this can all be taken with a grain of salt, but the only stat that "bugged" me when looking at the card was the 6 Range, since that seemed pretty obviously a tweak to make him closer to the action. But I also didn't hate it for that reason. That said, I do see where Scy and caps are coming from with the gunslinger misfit stats that they've brought up. Personally, I think 2 Attack 7 Range would be fine for him, since that loss in offensive power is made up by his ability to coordinate shootouts. But I'm also not certain that I'd really downvote the other stat ideas I've seen thrown around (though 6 Life does give me pause), since that's something that doesn't always stand out until play testing, like the previous version.

Again, I realize I'm the smallest voice contributing to this conversation, but thought I'd throw in a couple cents since the discussion is taking place. Plus why waste an opportunity to try to make a decision more difficult?

[Pumpkin_King]

I’m absolutely interested in what the other judges would have said! After all, I’ll be resubmitting him soon.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

I'd rather see 3 Defense than 6 Life for Clayton -- 6 Life sticks out more than 3 Defense.

Curious. Life values in Heroscape tend to be all over the place. Guilty having only 2 is quite different than James or Johnny, but no one complains about that. It has to be within reason, of course, but 6 Life doesn't even register to me as odd. On the other hand, this mini isn't any more suggestive of higher Defense than the other gunslingers. He's just wearing normal clothes.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Yeah, one of those weird taste things. 6 Life feels more metagamed to me, since humans with 6 life are generally frontline champions and warlords. Which I suppose Clayton could kind of be, but there's also nothing about the mini suggesting he's pure vitality like they are. I guess I'm faster to assume that his leader experience points would go into battle awareness and reflexes than vitality, as an example. Like why Brave Arrow has 3 Defense despite being even less armored than any of the gunslingers.

But also, it's hard to ascribe too much rhyme and reason to Heroscape stats, especially from an out-of-game perspective, which is reason for all the disclaimers that come with my thoughts.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

But also, it's hard to ascribe too much rhyme and reason to Heroscape stats, especially from an out-of-game perspective, which is reason for all the disclaimers that come with my thoughts.

That's very true.

Personally, I'd prefer Clayton to be "rough and tough" (added Life) than "dodge-y" (added Defense). but I can respect a difference of opinion.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Scytale

The higher Defense did make him a lesser target despite his central value to the army. But the extra Life still does that to a lesser extent

6L/2D is about 80% as durable as 5L/3D, so we'll see how much of an impact it has (as you also pointed out, with 7R he can hang back a bit more, which could also improve survivability).

Originally Posted by Scytale

Personally, I'd prefer Clayton to be "rough and tough" (added Life) than "dodge-y" (added Defense)

All depends on how strictly one views Defense as ability do "dodge" attacks. There's nothing particularly nimble about a Deathwalker, after all. Similarly, I tend to view Life more as... life, longevity. So 6 Life, to me, reads more as a particularly long-lived Human rather than a tough one. It's slightly different in everyone's mind, I'm sure.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

6L/2D is about 80% as durable as 5L/3D, so we'll see how much of an impact it has (as you also pointed out, with 7R he can hang back a bit more, which could also improve survivability).

All depends on how strictly one views Defense as ability do "dodge" attacks. There's nothing particularly nimble about a Deathwalker, after all. Similarly, I tend to view Life more as... life, longevity. So 6 Life, to me, reads more as a particularly long-lived Human rather than a tough one. It's slightly different in everyone's mind, I'm sure.

Deathwalker is a great example here, because he's only 1 life, but he's 9 defense. Imagine a design that switched those 2, and had 9 lives, with 1 defense? Would that be an incredibly old creature who can't dodge at all, but has lived hundreds of years? Defense can mean many things, and it certainly doesn't mean anything specific, except that they are likely to survive attacks unscathed somehow. It can mean dodgy, but it can also mean they are armored, or that they are really good at parrying attacks. It all depends. All that said, Clayton is an unarmored guy, who probably can't dodge or parry attacks super well, just like all the other Lawmen. 2 defense fits that theme pretty well. Of course Isamu and Marcu break that line of reasoning, but it was fun to think about.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

So 6 Life, to me, reads more as a particularly long-lived Human rather than a tough one. It's slightly different in everyone's mind, I'm sure.

I don't think of taking damage as cutting years off the creature's life. I see it like in D&D, or video games, or, well, most anything in gaming, really, as a measure of how much punishment that creature can take before it falls.

[dok]

Hey all. I have a design I'm working on that I'm thinking of submitting to SoV. Before I do, though, I wonder what you think of this design:

NAME = POTATO

UNIQUE HERO

LIFE = 1
MOVE = 0
RANGE = 1
ATTACK = 0
DEFENSE = 0
POINTS = 5

no powers

Is this design too strong for a SoV submission? Why or why not?

(This question is not as simple as it may appear to some.)

[superfrog]

If you changed the name to "A Large Potato", I'd throw it some Order Markers.