The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Dad_Scaper]

Ollie's makes my brain hurt. I prefer's Scy's first version - the teleport option - because the theme is strong and the mechanics are clear. I would rather not complicate the mechanics to enhance the effect of moving; that adds fiddliness without corresponding value added to theme.

[ollie]

The bits I care about are independent of the whole move/teleport issue. How's this:

When an opponent's small or medium figure within 5 3 clear sight spaces of Kuah destroys a Kyrie figure you control with a normal attack, you may roll the 20-sided die. On a roll of X or higher place Kuah adjacent to the attacking figure. That figure receives one wound. Kuah never takes leaving engagement attacks when using Swift Vengeance. Swift Vengeance may only be used once per turn/order marker/round.

With the same note that you could again ditch the last sentence entirely.

[ollie]

Another thought: with a high enough X, even the "small or medium" bit I added in could be taken back out.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Scytale

SWIFT VENGEANCE
When an opponent's figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Kuah destroys a Kyrie you control with a normal attack, you may move Kuah up to 5 spaces. If Kuah ends this movement adjacent to the enemy attacking figure, that figure receives one wound. Swift Vengeance may only be used once per turn.

That one is my favorite.

I like this version of the power the most for the aforementioned gameplay depth that it could add. Forcing the player to end their movement adjacent to the attacking figure just complicates the power and won't bring much to the table, besides removing some tactical options that might let players use Kuah in new ways. Players will likely want to go for the wound the majority of the time anyways.

If the route of limiting Swift Vengeance to Squads or Common Figures is taken, I'd personally like to see Kuah still be able to at least move when a Kyrie is destroyed (so that he can use his Intimidating Presence and tie down enemy figures), even if he can't wound Heroes or Unique Figures.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

My main qualm with making it a D20 ability is just that for me, it doesn't seem to fit. I don't know how to explain it other than, in practice it makes sense that he sees a fallen comrade and flies in swinging a mighty blow to the attacker.

Think of it as him potentially missing the attack, or the enemy seeing his advance and blocking the strike. I think that a D20 roll wouldn't be unthematic at all, even if I don't mind the lack of it.

[caps]

Replacing "Kyrie figure" with "figure" would definitely be more in keeping with the spirit of the other Kyrie. I like that much better than the alternatives. That makes him an exciting and interesting new standalone hero instead of a "fix."

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Scytale

It would remove my concern that Kuah would best be used with other generals' Kyrie, certainly. I would still say no unless Swift Vengeance had some sort of limitation.

I'm a little confused. How is that not shoehorning his design to ONLY help the Imperium? That is one of his main issues that was originally voiced, that he can't be designed FOR the imperium. making it "Einar Kyrie" would certainly be doing that imo. While my original design was to help the Imperium, that's clearly received enough pushback to allow him a broader synergy. Helping out any Kyrie is still very useful and thematic, especially when you have units like Atlaga who can be used with any general and typically not his own. I don't see that as an issue.

While Ollie's idea would give him even broader synergy to help any unit in your army, I think that's too broad.

I think the best version Syctale gave, that fits what I'm going for is...

Swift Vengeance
When an opponent's small or medium figure within 5 clear sight spaces of Kuah destroys a Kyrie you control with a normal attack, you may place Kuah adjacent to the attacking figure. If you do, that figure receives one wound. Kuah never takes leaving engagement attacks when using Swift Vengeance. Swift Vengeance may only be used once per turn.

This way, it's more thematic in that he "has" (not really though, he could stay right where he is) to fly adjacent to the attacking figure, while the 2nd Scytale version could allow him to just fly anywhere, which, doesn't really show vengeance to watch your comrade die, and then go and take a glyph.

[Dysole]

It would be keeping in line with Kiova as a precedent. I think for me the biggest difference is Inspired EI looks really good to the point that it feels like a fix. This feels like another tool for EI rather than a fix (and actually creates some very interesting dynamics with EI placement). I completely agree that if it's just kyrie, it'll basically be minions and sentinels.

~Dysole, who thinks if you make it figure, you've just given people very good reasons to play a bunch of rats with him.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I'm a little confused. How is that not shoehorning his design to ONLY help the Imperium? That is one of his main issues that was originally voiced, that he can't be designed FOR the imperium. making it "Einar Kyrie" would certainly be doing that imo. While my original design was to help the Imperium, that's clearly received enough pushback to allow him a broader synergy. Helping out any Kyrie is still very useful and thematic, especially when you have units like Atlaga who can be used with any general and typically not his own. I don't see that as an issue.

While Ollie's idea would give him even broader synergy to help any unit in your army, I think that's too broad.

You must realize that everyone will have their own views on this, not everyone will agree.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Dysole

It would be keeping in line with Kiova as a precedent. I think for me the biggest difference is Inspired EI looks really good to the point that it feels like a fix. This feels like another tool for EI rather than a fix (and actually creates some very interesting dynamics with EI placement). I completely agree that if it's just kyrie, it'll basically be minions and sentinels.

Good point. I mean, I see what you're saying, but I see the designers create Atlaga who clearly is strongest with Sentinels and Minions as well, but also makes an interesting addition to EI and Protectors. Why should creating another Kyrie Warrior with similar synergy be an issue? In fact, it's not even a stat boost like Atlaga. It's an ability with fairly limiting conditions that allows you to win back some points for losing a very high priced figure.

[Astroking112]

@Kinseth has nailed it. Everyone has their own views, many of which are different. Some people want to see the spectrum of synergy broadened, whilst others think that he would work best with a narrow focus. Having synergy directly with the Einar Imperium isn't an automatic disqualification; it just matters what the synergy is.

Out of curiosity, @Sir Heroscape , why do you want to force players to only use Swift Vengeance to wound? The only reason that I've seen so far is that it might be less thematic to let him fly out and grab a glyph or tie down some other enemy figures, but I could see an argument being made that a disciplined warrior like him will be willing to avenge and help his remaining brethren through any means, not just attacking the perpetrator (limiting it to only "attacking" the figure that killed an ally makes him seem more blinded by rage). Broadening the ways in which he can be used could make him much more exciting to play, and I don't see much of a downside. Especially if you do end up going for a more narrow synergy pool, the Imperium would greatly appreciate the added tactical flexibility.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Out of curiosity, @Sir Heroscape , why do you want to force players to only use Swift Vengeance to wound? The only reason that I've seen so far is that it might be less thematic to let him fly out and grab a glyph or tie down some other enemy figures, but I could see an argument being made that a disciplined warrior like him will be willing to avenge and help his remaining brethren through any means, not just attacking the perpetrator (limiting it to only "attacking" the figure that killed an ally makes him seem more blinded by rage). Broadening the ways in which he can be used could make him much more exciting to play, and I don't see much of a downside. Especially if you do end up going for a more narrow synergy pool, the Imperium would greatly appreciate the added tactical flexibility.

I like the threat of it and the uniqueness of the ability. So many abilities out there allow some sort of movement bonding or conditional movement, and while this is somewhat like that, I want it more focused on attacking and making up for lost figures. It's pretty new and unique the way it's designed, and for me I don't see him running in the opposite direction while his comrade just died.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I like the threat of it and the uniqueness of the ability. So many abilities out there allow some sort of movement bonding or conditional movement, and while this is somewhat like that, I want it more focused on attacking and making up for lost figures. It's pretty new and unique the way it's designed, and for me I don't see him running in the opposite direction while his comrade just died.

Thanks for the explanation. I do think that combining the wounding potential with the movement (along with using Stealth Flying) to mimic a full turn is plenty unique without forcing players to use it that way, though. In fact, I think that it'd make him more unique to also be able reposition himself when a friendly Kyrie dies, and I think that the incentive to move him adjacent to the enemy is strong enough that he'll usually be used for that purpose. For the few times when there is a group of good targets for him to tie down or he needs to reinforce a line, though, it would be nice to be able to make some hard decisions. Not many units have that level of openness in how they can be used, so I think that the ones that let players make interesting choices like that are well worth the time.