The Pre-SoV Workshop

[caps]

I have another issue; he is the cheapest way to add a special attack to your army thus far. That would possibly be a deal breaker for me.

Aside from that, I think you can do a much better job of coming up with stats and powers that fit the mini.

[The Dewk]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

Vantus

I also don't think Vantus is as dynamic as I'd like him to be, and agree with Ixe that it seems like he's being forced into a 10-point price. I like what he's trying to do, and the powers are cool at a baseline level, but I think he's being held back by trying to keep him at 10 points.

I see the appeal of having a unit to give an initiative bonus in the endgame - it's huge! But currently you have to effectively waste a turn on Vantus in order to get that advantage. It's worse than cancelling that advantage out, because while you're moving him across the field 4 spaces at a time, you give your opponent a whole extra turn unhindered to develop their map control and further thin out your forces, resulting in a huge loss of momentum. I like the concept and think a defensive/strategic filler is an awesome idea, but I don't think Vantus is there yet.

All very constructive criticism. That's why I love this thread - plenty of good thoughts from those who know what they are doing.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Honestly, I see one simple fix. Just make the Tactical Genius ability activate using the 'X' Order Marker at the end of the round and bump his points to 20 (because we only have Marcu for 20pt fillers right now). I really like the concept of the initiative ability, but using the X order Marker will make him SO worth using for just about any army you want. I'd draft him over Isamu most games just because I could sit him in my startzone and get chances to win initiative switches during the entire game. That, and then my opponent might even consider wasting turns going after him in order to keep me from that bonus. For 20pts...totally worth it in my mind since it's not a for sure win...it just gives you another chance to win initiative. To make him effective as a filler I think you have to use the X OM otherwise it's wasting turns. That, and it hinders players from drafting him with Gladiator and Dwarf builds because they'll want to keep the X OM for Spartacus and Morgrimm.

Oooh, I would love to change it to an X OM ability, and bump him up to 20! Sacrificing strategic placement of the X OM for some initiative advantage is classic. I'd just have to test the crap out of him to make sure he doesn't overshadow Marcu (who is already quite powerful). THanks!

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I saw Bol's design earlier in this thread and absolutely loved him as a new filler, but Vantus the Tactician doesn't feel as nice and compact to me. I completely agree with the sentiment expressed earlier--it feels like he's being forced into a 10 point design, and while I'd love to have more of those cheap fillers, he feels like he could be fleshed out with just a few more points.

I really like Sir Heroscape's suggestion of upping his point cost to 20. That would give some more leeway in making his ability work well, along with adding another viable 20 point filler (Marcu needs alternative options, too!) outside of Elven armies.

I agree! Thanks for the thoughts (and for liking Bol)!

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

You could even go with 40. Who else is 40, even. Theracus?

Haha yeah, Theracus is the only classic hero at 40. But in the C3V we've got the most excellent Siiv, and Patrick Ferguson (I don't call him excellent because I haven't used him yet haha).
After all these comments, I'm definitely going to tinker with his point cost.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I have a few problems with this candidate. Let’s start with the mini: What is that thing next to him? A sword? How tall is the mini? I see height 4 but I’m suspicious that he is a short 4. What are we looking at here?

I’m not liking what I see in this mini itself. Not that it’s bad, but it’s just not inspiring. If I understood the mini better then maybe I’d have more to say about the power set, which doesn’t seem to match the mini at all. Except for the rounded armor power, which looks like filler until a better idea - such as just leaving the space blank - comes along.

To answer your questions: It's a sword that stands taller than he does. He stands the same size as Eldgrim, and a hair taller than S. Raider. Didn't make him a Small 4 because that doesn't exist (in classic 'scape anyway. And I suppose you'd know if C3V has Small 4!), but I certainly could if it wouldn't turn people off.

I personally feel the powers match the mini - his special attack is turning his sword around and using the large pommel to bludgeon heavily armored foes (a sword technique called Mordschlag). As for his his Rounded Armor, well, he definitely has rounded armor (though I can see where you are coming from in that it lacks fierce inspiration). And although you can't tell from looking at him that he's a Tactical Genius (he's not a giant brain, I'm afraid), what would a short, stout soldier be doing on the battlefield if he wasn't there for tactical reasons? Haha that's how I see it anyway.

Originally Posted by capsocrates

I have another issue; he is the cheapest way to add a special attack to your army thus far. That would possibly be a deal breaker for me.

Aside from that, I think you can do a much better job of coming up with stats and powers that fit the mini.

Interesting. Although Special Attacks are generally considered better than normal attacks, I never would've thought that a single attack of 2 dice would be an issue and not kosher on a 10 pointer. It's something to consider though, thank you!



And thank you all! This thread really is so excellent, and I appreciate every commenter. I'll go tinker with all that is going on with Vantus, test a bit, and return in the future.

[aksisu11]

Originally Posted by The Dewk

And although you can't tell from looking at him that he's a Tactical Genius (he's not a giant brain, I'm afraid), what would a short, stout soldier be doing on the battlefield if he wasn't there for tactical reasons? Haha that's how I see it anyway.

When looking at the mini I was trying to picture him, and all I could think of was two characters I've seen on TV. First one is Gimli, who I believe is not so much of a tactical genius as he is a brute fighter.


Butttttt you then have one of my favorite characters in Game of Thrones series, Tyrion. This guy is a tactical genius, if you disregard season 7 where he struggled a bit. What Tyrion lacks in size and strength, he makes up for in mental acuity.


I would say looking at this guy I get a more of a brute fighter feel, but at the same time I understand where you're going with the tactician. I would say if I was carrying a sword that large into battle I better know how to use it. It just seems like his short pudgy statue doesn't match his choice of weapon. Love the creativity!

[Dad_Scaper]

This does not look like a good mini for an exemplar of "how to fight using the pommel of your sword." The weapon is comically large; turning it around to bash someone's plate mail would be, as I envision it, absurd. I could get past that if there was other great stuff going on here, but "rounded armor" does not work for me at all. I can't envision how that works, either. It seems tacked on.

And I don't intend to detract, by returning to these concerns, from some of those raised by others. As Cap noted, you're getting a lot out of this guy for 10 points.

[aksisu11]

Guys can I get some feedback on Guardian 37 that I created. Any feedback is welcome

Spoiler Alert!

I used DS' forum to help clean up some abilities, and I think it is ready to get analyzed by some talented customs designers.

I chose this figure because I really liked this sculpt, and I haven't heard anything from the C3V team about using him yet. I also thought this guy could be a great unit to add to the Utgar soulborg faction. I really felt whenever I play, or play against someone who chooses to draft a deathwalker frustration soon sets in because of a crappy defense roll. Looking at the Utgar Soulborg faction there really wasn't a leader/unit that was a defensive unit (Unless you think their high defense makes them a defensive unit). I really like the concept of unit that detect an incoming threat and neutralizes it. I added the last ability so he can bond with the Zettian Guards and Zettian Infantry, since he is a guardian and I would like to give the Zettian Guards a little more love

Somethings that I'm not super sold on is the name of his defensive power. I went back and forth on this one; Flare Response, Intercepting Flares, and AEGIS. Also, he feels like he looks and needs to be a slow moving unit. The limited playtesting I have done really hasn't help me with this issue.

Thanks everyone for looking! Excited to her everyone's feedback


TACTICAL LASER RESPONSE
When an opponent's figure uses a normal attack against Guardian 37 or a figure with within 3 clear sight spaces of Guardian 37, and the figures are not adjacent to each other, you may roll the 20-sided die. Count the minimum number of spaces between the attacking figure and the defending figure. Add this number to your die roll. If you roll a 1-13, roll defense dice normally. If you roll a 14 or higher, the targeted figure takes no damage.
ROCKET BARRAGE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 4. Attack 4. Choose a figure to attack. Any figures adjacent to the chosen figure are also affected by the Rocket Barrage Special Attack. Guardian 37 only needs a clear sight shot at the chosen figure. Roll 4 attack dice once for all affected figures. Each figure rolls defense dice seperately. Guardian 37 can be affected by his own Rocket Barrage Special Attack.

[wriggz]

I feel like Laser Response is trending on the Zettian Infantry a little to much. One of the charms of the DW's is their swingyness.

Additionally with Form up you are getting 8 move out of Zettian Infantry with bonding. There is also the Chain bonding with Deathcommander, who could take a turn, activate Guardian and then move deathreavers or deathstalkers.

Finally Guardian normally has a positive connotation, which doesn't really fit utgar - also the figure does not appear to play as a guardian.

[The Dewk]

This guy(?) is sick! I love the flavor/visualization of him tracking an enemy projectile and shooting it out of the sky before it gets to its destination. His special attack is very Soulborgy, too. I like the idea behind Form Up very much as well, but all of a sudden giving the Zettian Infantry 8 move feels weird (OM on Infantry, bond with Guardian 37, he moves Zettians 4, takes a shot at something, then they move 4 more on their turn), but that's my biggest issue.

Lastly, Precise Soulborg Guardian is fine, but I would make him a Guard rather than Guardian, as that would get Warden synergy (and is Guardian even an existing class?).

I'm not a customs veteran like many that may respond, but know that I really like this guy!

[Lazy Orang]

Fun looking design, but I have to say, I never thought this figure should be an Utgar soulborg. It's a fairly massive change in aesthetic from the black Deathborgs to something red, and the mini always felt more like it belonged in Valkril alongside the Vulcanmech Incendiborgs - the minis look like they fit together better, to me.

[Dad_Scaper]

I don’t think Form Up is necessary, and I don’t think it adds to the quality of the design. It should come off.

[Pumpkin_King]

I like the Laser Defense a lot, flavorwise. If you do future versions I think that could stay, maybe with turning the dial down a bit.

"Form up" is a little useless on a unit that would be subject to bonding to begin with (as pointed out) - I see what you were going for, but I think it just feels out of place mechanically.

[Sir Heroscape]

Overall, I think this unit really needs more play testing and cleaning up. I don’t like to be a downer but just from personal experience this thread is really effective when designers come to the table with the unit they’ve playtested just a little more extensively and hashed out a little more completely. No offense, it just seems like there’s still some work to be done before this is a clean enough unit to evaluate.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Overall, I think this unit really needs more play testing and cleaning up. I don’t like to be a downer but just from personal experience this thread is really effective when designers come to the table with the unit they’ve playtested just a little more extensively and hashed out a little more completely. No offense, it just seems like there’s still some work to be done before this is a clean enough unit to evaluate.

Hmm. Well, I think if you remove Form Up then you have something really interesting. Which might not be quite this harsh, but maybe we're saying the same thing.