Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Shiftrex]

A while ago actually. The card I put in Pre-Sov were humans. After the reject this spring I waited a few months and then just set them as human. Seemed simpler and was a suggestion from DS like well over a year ago.

Right now they are humans from earth. No magic powers, just skilled.

[superfrog]

Oh. I just saw Feylund in the post when I looked and was confused. No longer confused.

to review both this and the Dolomite Defender

[Scytale]

I am concerned about Stalkers interacting with other powers, most notably "after taking a turn" powers Heroes may have. It's possible this one would fail at the Editing phase. But I can't think of a specific problem right now. Otherwise, it's a nice implementation of the concept of "hunters," though whether or not it works well will come down to testing.

to review the Wulfing Hunters

[Vydar_XLIII]

Diorite Defender Submission: I'll echo what has been said above. Great theme! Its nice to see the Granite Guardians get some love. And I can see issues with being able to create height for your ranged pods.

I like that it gives height advantage in most circumstances but not all the time. I've tried a power in the past (for one of my personal customs that would help out the GGs) that said "Any figure in targeted space has height advantage this round" or something, and I like this more.

If, through testing, we decide that Rock Pillars is too strong for ranged pods an easy fix would be to require an unrevealed order marker on an Elementar for the power to work, that way you'd be lessening the offensive output of the ranged pod builds without sacrificing any help you'd give the GGs.

I vote to review Diorite Defender.

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Wulfling Hunters Resubmission: I like how these really feel like they're hunting something now.

I have a couple of questions about Strike and Fade. It isn't quite clear on a few points. Am I correct in assuming that it is only supposed to work with Wulfling Hunters and not any Hunter? And am I right to assume it only works for wounds inflicted this turn? As it reads now, if Himmelskralle wounded something last round, she could move. I just want to make sure I have the intent of the power correct. I think it wants to read like this (added text in italics).

STRIKE AND FADE
After attacking with the Wulfing Hunters, you may move any Wulfling Hunters that dealt one or more wounds to an opponent's figure this turn up to three spaces each.

Also, is it intentional that SaF would trigger LEAs from heroes that get wounded and not destroyed? I think this feels like a power that could use "Figures moved with Strike and Fade do not take leaving engagement attacks" tacked on the end.

[Shiftrex]

Yes, it is intended that you are only able to move Wulfing Hunters with strike and fade. Not sure why it didn't come up in the workshop. I think the italics you have captures the intent well.

Yes, it is currently intentional that Strike and Fade can trigger LEAs. You aren't supposed to use their passive movement to get them into a bunch of engagements and you aren't intended to go for a lot of engagements in general and use them as a screen. They like picking off single targets and then staying unengaged. I assumed that if I added disengage to this I'd be pointed out as trying to have four powers so I just avoided it altogether and stuck with the unit being good at hunting and picking off single targets with a preference to avoid mass engagements for best value.

Disengage definitely feels better from a pure gameplay standpoint but additional power always feels better. Leaves room open for a support hero in the future that could facilitate disengage and provide other benefits.

[wriggz]

I think the intent of strike and fade is clear. Up to review.

Up to review dolerite defender too.

[Vydar_XLIII]

Cool, glad we're on the same page with the first point and I'm glad the LEAs was intentional. They want to get in, kill, and get out. And if they don't get the kill they're stuck. I think that's right.

I vote to review the Wulfling Hunters.

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My question about the LEAs comes about because most conditional or special movement powers like Stealth Leap, Grapple Arm, Scurry, or Chain Grab stipulate whether the moved figure does or does not take LEAs.

So the power functionally reads as...

STRIKE AND FADE
After attacking with the Wulfing Hunters, you may move any Wulfling Hunter that dealt one or more wounds to an opponent's figure this turn up to three spaces each. If a Wulfling Hunter is engaged when he starts to move with Strike and Fade, he will take any leaving engagement attacks.

[Shiftrex]

Agreement from me here ^^ that is the intent of what we want.

[caps]

I suggested that an aggressive player may often use Strike and Fade to reposition into superior ground after attacking while remaining engaged with the original target. Grabbing elevation, moving onto an adjacent glyph, tying down additional figures, etc.

[BiggaBullfrog]

Lee Jun by @Leaf_It

Ah... the final showdown...

Balance

Lee Jun runs a pretty unique skillset, which means it's difficult to draw a straight comparison balance-wise. Comparing him to the Monks, Yi Feng is also a more defensive monk, has higher attack, but, in Lee's ideal fight, less defense and fewer attacks. Zhen Yuan and Chen Tang have more consistent offensive output and more life, but again, if you're looking at situations where Lee Jun can get engagements, his survivability starts to outpace theirs.

The really tough thing about these comparisons is that the Monks are in a weird space, balance-wise. Each has an ideal matchup they'd like to play into, so if you're looking at Lee Jun's ideal matchup, of course he looks better. If you're trying to average things out, each monk becomes fairly mediocre.

I will say that, when making comparisons, Lee Jun looks pretty good. While he lacks the consistent offensive potential that Zhen Yuan and Chen Tang have, he is a powerful disruptor figure in that he's one that the opponent wants to avoid until they can ideally kill him in a couple of turns. I personally found that since the other pieces of a Monk build aren't lacking in offense, Lee Jun seemed a strong pick for his points and the utility he offers.

Theme

The theme for Lee Jun is awesome, in my opinion. All of the Monks take martial art tropes to use that as a base for their powers, which Lee Jun does as well. His is the trope of taking hits and turning them back on enemies; not in an immediate way, like Yi Feng, but more of a stored power or backlash. He also has the trope of excelling when surrounded by enemies. Both Bending Reed Stance and Melee Combat Expert are great Monk powers, and they convey a strong vibe for the unit, making games with him seem almost cinematic, which is right on with the Heroscape brand.

Creativity

Lee Jun's powerset, right-and-left-side stats, and mini all fit into the role he's creating, which likewise fits into the established Monk faction. He's a melee defender figure, like Yi Feng, but operates in a unique way. All in all the unit feels fresh with the new powers, but also familiar and intuitive to players.

There is a little bit of role overlap with Lee Jun and Yi Feng; at least enough to be notable. Both turn attacks against their opponents, but Yi Feng has more of a one-on-one role with his higher single attack and immediate wounding power, and Lee Jun wants to take on multiple enemies with Melee Combat Expert combined with his ability to strike back multiple times (though that is also strong against single opponents).

Playability

The most noticeable part of having Lee Jun on the board is how he affects an opponent's tactics. Since he can take hits and return them when he chooses, an opponent doesn't want to throw random attacks at him, instead waiting until they can commit a good few turns of strong attacks at him.

There's a lot of counterplay that happens here. Lee Jun is an excellent defender for a Monk army, where it's not uncommon for him to be sitting at 6 defense with Master Woo's aura. However, with 4 life and wanting to wait for stored attacks, he becomes rather swingy. Sometimes he tanks attacks and dishes out damage like a madman, and sometimes just the right attack will break through his defense to finish him off.

When he does store up attacks, being able to dish them out as he pleases becomes a big benefit. He can smack squaddies on the frontlines, Stealth Leap behind to make a flurry of attacks on a cheerleader, or even something in between. If the Monk player can force a straight brawl with Lee at the focal point, he'll carry a lot of the action, even if that happens by the opponent ignoring him. Good placement with Lee can force an opponent to choose between trying to attack him an opening up to a flurry of counterattack blows, or take suboptimal attacks at other parts of the army. Even against range, random pot shots against him can still serve to fuel his Bending Reed Stance, and if he engages a screen or a couple ranged figures, he'll still have high defense against other incoming attacks.

If you can't tell, Lee is pretty good as a playmaker, taking the enemy focus while the other figures in the army work behind him to take advantage of the decisions he forces. That is, however, when he is able to drive the action. Sometimes the opponent can avoid a direct fight, and that's where Lee starts to falter. If an opponent can take the fight into their own terms and spread out the playing field, and especially if they can just ignore Lee, he starts to become extra baggage. Any Shaolin Monks, usually the main damage of the army, that he can't protect can fall very quickly and start to limit the army.

Back to Monk hero roles really quick: Lee is good at what he does, and, bluntly, seems to be on a higher power level than the other Monk heroes. However, this is due to each Monk having an ideal playstyle and matchup, as I mentioned earlier. Outside of that, they're all mediocre, and that goes for Lee Jun as well. A flexible opponent who won't allow a straight fight is Lee's worst nightmare. He can still disrupt by quickly engaging and scaring some figures, but ultimately if an opponent is using speed, range, etc. to their advantage and picking their fights well, one of the other Monk heroes becomes more viable; Yi Feng for one-on-ones and automatic counter damage, or Zhen Yuan/Chen Tang for more consistent attacks when rushing figures.

Summary

Lee Jun adds a big role to the Monk faction and, when used well in a good matchup, becomes scary good at that role. However, an opponent with a flexible strategy has a lot of ways to work around him and undermine his impact. While testing, I was worried that he would outshine the other Monk heroes in the build, but when testing against a variety of armies and playstyles I ended up finding plenty of games where I would have preferred Yi Feng's automatic wounds with defense or Zhen Yuan/Chen Tang's more consistent offensive output. I'm pleased to find that Lee Jun is a good, thematic, and fun addition to the game.

I vote Yea to induct Lee Jun into the Soldiers of Valhalla.

With that, I actually was serious about this being the final showdown, at least for me. I am stepping down from my position as a judge in the SoV.

[UtahScott]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

With that, I actually was serious about this being the final showdown, at least for me. I am stepping down from my position as a judge in the SoV.

Excellent review, Bigga! You always give so much to think about, and I've enjoyed your efforts. It's also necessary to get things off your plate on occasion--I hope this frees up time for other things, and that you'll show up more often locally! Best wishes for your future.

[Shiftrex]

Thanks for your work here!