Workshop Thread

[Sir Heroscape]

Also recognize we're being a little more nitpicky because
1) you asked us to
2) we've seen similar mistakes or issues with maps before
3) with limited terrain it requires even more care in the design. when you have "too much" terrain it's a little easier to fudge some stuff or get away with others, but slim terrain really requires a certain finesse to map building. We're trying to help that finesse.
4) the more I play heroscape the more I realize it's a Chess game. While dice are involved, games of heroscape are won and lost by 1 single hex. The more competitive a person plays, the more meticulous they study a map and it's subtle advantages and disadvantages and they will be able to exploit any potential mishaps by the designer. We're trying to help designers be mindful of some of those things. So take courage, you're doing well...but after all, this was meant to be a challenge...and well, it is a contest too.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

the more I play heroscape the more I realize it's a Chess game. While dice are involved, games of heroscape are won and lost by 1 single hex. The more competitive a person plays, the more meticulous they study a map and it's subtle advantages and disadvantages and they will be able to exploit any potential mishaps by the designer.

Not sure who said it originally but I remember hearing something about Heroscape being about 20% skill - 80% luck for beginners, 50-50 for average players, and 80-20 for experienced players.

The goal is to put yourself into the best position to win (knowing the map is a key part of that) and let the dice work themselves out. Sometimes you make a really good play and the dice fail you, but there are other times a dumb play can be a good one if the dice fall in your favor.

Spoiler Alert!

Related to luck/chance: One of the local guys that played in tournies here in OH would be optimistic and no matter the odds would say the "chances are 50-50, it either happens or it doesn't."

[Ulysses]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

I like the ambitious 1BftU build, @Ulysses ! Option A shadow placement is definitely better since it lets more figures access the shadow on turn 1, not just 6 move figures.

Those are both Treasure Glyphs, yeah? I worry that they won't be worth going for during a competitive game, since the high ground is so much stronger and you don't want to waste a turn putting a hero in a compromising position to get a glyph that might help one of your figures.

My main concern with the map is that its small size and limited pathing will make most games feel the same when you play it, since there isn't a ton of options. I also worry about melee battles where you just kind of fill in on both sides of the center and roll dice until someone wins. Add Raelin and it becomes even more of a dice slog. I think ideally there would be more of an incentive to flank around the sides. This could be helped by popping some shadow over there because it doesn't need to be in the center -- that's already strong enough and just helps range since it's on height. I'd pop some into those two 2-hex divots on either side in the middle. If you can get more hexes to open up the sides that will help as well, so they don't just get clogged.

Also, and I know I'm pushing into major rework territory, I don't love the placement of the 2-hex height on either side of the outcrops. That encourages turtling a ton, and with the narrow passages on either side of the outcrops that means things will get gummed up quickly, letting ranged figures on top just plug away at figures that are stuck and can't move. I'd much rather see height where it would be more easily contested.

Anyway, I know those are some picky thoughts but they stem off of patterns that I've seen and experienced with a lot of other ARV submissions that have made top 10 but then not passed review. I do think you've got a great theme/design going on! If you're able to then take another step and address these concerns I think it will be that much better.

Hey thank you for your thoughtful feedback! Those are treasure glyphs and though in our playtests it did encourage some heroes to take the flank routes, others either ignored them until late game if they found themselves close, or didn't use them at all. It has been difficult to provide interesting pathing options with such little terrain and especially, I feel, with bilateral symmetry. I really want to open up the flanks, but I just can't find the hexes without starting from scratch, and even then... who knows?
I like the idea of using shadow to encourage flanking and it makes sense to get them off the high ground, I'll play with that.
I played a rats and Raelin build and it was less of an issue than I had thought. There were perches, but she rarely had LOS of more than 10-12 spaces and the rats were managed well with some SAs. I'll certainly see if I can improve on that though (they only played 2 squads of rats).
Some of the most fun was had hiding figures behind the north walls and charging them up to contest height, I want to see if I can help those plays and other options along more.
I truly appreciate the feedback! My goal is to get a map into to the ARV one of these days and any tips, knowledge, and practice I can get helps.
I'm going to keep playing with it, I'm on version 5 now and hopefully playtesting soon. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Also recognize we're being a little more nitpicky because
1) you asked us to
2) we've seen similar mistakes or issues with maps before
3) with limited terrain it requires even more care in the design. when you have "too much" terrain it's a little easier to fudge some stuff or get away with others, but slim terrain really requires a certain finesse to map building. We're trying to help that finesse.
4) the more I play heroscape the more I realize it's a Chess game. While dice are involved, games of heroscape are won and lost by 1 single hex. The more competitive a person plays, the more meticulous they study a map and it's subtle advantages and disadvantages and they will be able to exploit any potential mishaps by the designer. We're trying to help designers be mindful of some of those things. So take courage, you're doing well...but after all, this was meant to be a challenge...and well, it is a contest too.

I'm just glad to have the input and I wanted to say that an ARV map is something you should be able to print out, build, and have a balanced and good looking game on, so, you folks have a reputation to keep. As a frequent player, and someone who just really likes building maps, it's been an amazing and heavily used resource. I'm sure I'll end up at a point with the map that I'll have to say it's as good as I can do, but for now I'll keep testing it. Thank you both!

[Sir Heroscape]

I think you could just swap out the treasure glyphs for power glyphs. They’re in a good, natural spot.

[Sir Heroscape]

I helped @Owlman generate his map on VS. This is where his map is currently and he'd like some feedback before submitting.

Owlman Submission

[Flash_19]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I helped @Owlman generate his map on VS. This is where his map is currently and he'd like some feedback before submitting.

Owlman Submission

@Owlman

Thanks so much for getting in on the map building action! It's always great to see new people jump in to the contests!

A couple thoughts for your map:
1) This is a good first draft!
2) The action on this map is very much going to focus around the center and I doubt the outsides edges will see much if any use. There are a couple things that are contributing to that - the placement of jungle terrain, glyphs, and the location of height in relation to jungle terrain and glyphs. I think it would be more effective to try and spread things out throughout the map.
3) As you do that there are a couple things I would be careful to look for. Height positions are obviously advantageous. Putting jungle next to a height position increases the value of that spot dramatically. Personally, I have started to avoid putting jungle next to level 3 height or higher when designing a tournament map because those spots seem to often be problematic (though sometimes it can work depending on the build). They just often make perfect spots to park Raelin or ranged units, and can be very difficult to threaten or overtake. Next - be careful how high you put glyphs as well. Something you have done well in this map is to ensure that attackers could attack down on someone holding a glyph. Just be wary of how high those glyphs are relative to the entire map. As with the jungle and height example, paired advantages can be game breaking. An exception to that that would be relevant on this map is if a glyph is placed on level one (or a level 0 water space), a jungle piece could be appropriately placed next to the glyph to help balance things out.

I hope those suggestions help! Feel free to ask for follow up help or additional suggestions as you need it.

Thanks for participating!

[Owlman]

Originally Posted by Flash_19

@Owlman

Thanks so much for getting in on the map building action! It's always great to see new people jump in to the contests!

A couple thoughts for your map:
1) This is a good first draft!
2) The action on this map is very much going to focus around the center and I doubt the outsides edges will see much if any use. There are a couple things that are contributing to that - the placement of jungle terrain, glyphs, and the location of height in relation to jungle terrain and glyphs. I think it would be more effective to try and spread things out throughout the map.
3) As you do that there are a couple things I would be careful to look for. Height positions are obviously advantageous. Putting jungle next to a height position increases the value of that spot dramatically. Personally, I have started to avoid putting jungle next to level 3 height or higher when designing a tournament map because those spots seem to often be problematic (though sometimes it can work depending on the build). They just often make perfect spots to park Raelin or ranged units, and can be very difficult to threaten or overtake. Next - be careful how high you put glyphs as well. Something you have done well in this map is to ensure that attackers could attack down on someone holding a glyph. Just be wary of how high those glyphs are relative to the entire map. As with the jungle and height example, paired advantages can be game breaking. An exception to that that would be relevant on this map is if a glyph is placed on level one (or a level 0 water space), a jungle piece could be appropriately placed next to the glyph to help balance things out.

I hope those suggestions help! Feel free to ask for follow up help or additional suggestions as you need it.

Thanks for participating!

Thanks for the feedback!

It's funny you mentioned that, Sir Heroscape originally felt everyone would stay on the edges and not really wanna go towards the middle in fear of being sniped to death, lol.

So over all is it pretty good, just need to re-arrange the bushes/height a little, or should I rework it completely?

[Sir Heroscape]

I don't think it needs a major rework...slight adjustments should be fine. I think a simple fix to help the conflict spread out would be to throw the glyphs on the outsides, on the other side of the ruins on the level 1 grass.

I would disagree about jungle placement though. As is I think that's about as good as you can get it without it covering other height spots. the hills are already pretty tall and moving jungle out to the edges won't do much imo...but maybe I'd have to see it changed around first....idk.

[Nomad]

Here is my two cents. Nice looking map. I don't see figures going to the edges of the map for any reason - I would also recommend putting the glyphs on the far sides of the map. I am OK with the jungle placement, but perhaps you can take the two on height and place them adjacent to the start zone by swapping out a rock tile for a little cover for figures who are slow to move out. Maybe, in the place of the power glyphs, you can add a couple of treasure glyphs, or somewhere nearby. Just some thoughts. The map you design is yours. I see promise and a very nice looking map.

[Flash_19]

Originally Posted by Owlman

Thanks for the feedback!

It's funny you mentioned that, Sir Heroscape originally felt everyone would stay on the edges and not really wanna go towards the middle in fear of being sniped to death, lol.

So over all is it pretty good, just need to re-arrange the bushes/height a little, or should I rework it completely?

That is funny.

It is certainly important to note that our feedback at this point is theoryscaping based on a 2d image. It's amazing what additional insights you find when you build a map and actually play on it. So take our feedback at this stage with a grain of salt. I know we each have some common things we look for, but there are also some unique things as well. I just hope that doesn't frustrate people to hear the varying perspectives at times.

And at this stage I don't think it needs a major rework. If I were you, I'd wait to hear what @BiggaBullfrog and @Nomad have to say before you decide what to do.

Overall, I do like what I see - I think it's got some great potential. So thanks for the effort you've put into designing it!

EDIT: Ninja'd by Nomad!

[Owlman]

Aight cool, i'll see what I can do today!

[BiggaBullfrog]

@Owlman Just popping in quick here so this won't be super thorough, though you've already gotten a lot of good feedback. Mainly wanted to throw that I also think the jungle on the high ground should be moved down, and I really don't like the glyph positions. I think this could be a good map to have 3 glyphs ala Flash Fire -- one on each edge and one in the middle (it would take a little rearranging of tiles to get an actual central hex for the middle glyph, but I think it could be done and would probably enhance the map). The other main concern is that the height changes very quickly, which makes it really hard for melee figures to catch any kiting range (dragons, Krav, and Marro Warriors would be super hard to pin down). Evening the changes a little, along with good jungle placement can help with that, which is why I think spreading it out would help since right now it's kind of clumped in the middle and you have 3 pieces affecting a lot of the same spaces.