The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Toogwick_tuk]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Issues I have with it.

1-Just ditch Dismiss the Rabble, feels like tacking on.

2-Attack of 6, will trigger the Mega Troll turns too often.(And I am too, very worried that 3+ wounds could be removed via 1 order marker.)

3-Bonding to other trolls, I don't feel the theme as to why the other trolls suddenly are now rushing in. Trolls are menacing, vicious as it is. This would scream as a power that makes lesser units coming into battle, not already blood thirsty killers.

Yeah, I'm convinced to drop the power at this point

I'd be willing to drop it to an attack of 5, but in my tests the trolls needed the turns to try and fight back against squad figures (it rarely comes up against hero armies). In a lot of my tests, healing 3+ wounds doesn't come up much, and is easily played around by focusing down Gruoark 1st because he is going to be on the front lines and easy to swarm. I've also did a lot of my tests on snow and ice maps too make sure the healing isn't too intense with the Ice Troll.

The idea behind Gruoark being a leader for the trolls is that he's basically a big bad bully that can get other trolls to be afraid of him/ whip them up into a frenzy. Another option to make this more clear would be to change his bonding to if he wounds a troll or destroys a figure.

This is the current iteration of the card.

[ollie]

Originally Posted by Toogwick_tuk

I'd be willing to drop it to an attack of 5, but in my tests the trolls needed the turns to try and fight back against squad figures (it rarely comes up against hero armies). In a lot of my tests, healing 3+ wounds doesn't come up much, and is easily played around by focusing down Gruoark 1st because he is going to be on the front lines and easy to swarm. I've also did a lot of my tests on snow and ice maps too make sure the healing isn't too intense with the Ice Troll.

Testing thoughts: have you tried them against armies whose core is non-elite commons with low-ish attacks (Tagawa Archers, Aubriens, Zombies, Mezzodemons,...)? The frustrating experiences I've seen against trolls tended to involve these units, I think. (Actually, I only remember truly frustrating experiences in a couple of instances, both involving the ice troll.)

I think you need to be careful here of the line between a bad match-up---which less competitive units have to accept that they have---and certain defeat.

[Toogwick_tuk]

Originally Posted by ollie

Testing thoughts: have you tried them against armies whose core is non-elite commons with low-ish attacks (Tagawa Archers, Aubriens, Zombies, Mezzodemons,...)? The frustrating experiences I've seen against trolls tended to involve these units, I think. (Actually, I only remember truly frustrating experiences in a couple of instances, both involving the ice troll.)

I think you need to be careful here of the line between a bad match-up---which less competitive units have to accept that they have---and certain defeat.

I have tested him against similar squads like the M-43 resistance fighters back before his first go into the SoV and he didn't do too good against him. I think a lot of those squads have enough options to eventually take him down/ prevent bonding turns (zombies have their special attack and the zombie hulk, mezzos can just prevent turns with exoskeleton, aubriens and tagawa have high range). It wasn't a big issue back then when he had 2 defense so I dont think it should be an issue now.

[caps]

I'm also skeptical about Troll Warcharge being a good fit for the canon.

[superfrog]

I don't remember this design being contentious the first time it came through, although perhaps I'm not remembering everything.

This just really strikes me as a solid dungeon boss troll design.

[Scytale]

Gruoark! There's a blast from the past for me.

The latest version is pretty similar to the originally-submitted one, which is good because I liked that one pretty well. The change from Conqueror to Brute is a good one, imo. Defense going from 2 to 1 is good too, as I found him borderline too good in some setups. The big change is the loss of Troll Leadership, which was the reason I downvoted him last time through.

So yeah, I like this version.

[Sheep]

I think Drak Whiptail in now ready for Pre-SoV. Completely revamped from the last time. Testing has shown him to be quite capable against other melee units. His bonding options love for him to tie down a pod of range units as they move in. The series of events when you are able to mix Combat Challenge with Zogross' Opportunity Strike and then maybe Shield Spike is a lot of fun and a good use of powers.

Drak Whiptail
Ullar

Lizarfolk
Unique Hero
Predator
Relentless
MEDIUM 5

Life 5
Move 6
Range 1
Attack 5
Defense 3
Points 130

FRENZY
After you take a turn with Drak Whiptail, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 16 or higher you may take another turn with Drak Whiptail.

COMBAT CHALLENGE
If an opponent’s figure that is adjacent to Drak Whiptail attacks with a normal or special attack, it must attack Drak Whiptail.

SPIKED SHIELD DEFENSE
When rolling defense dice, if Drak Whiptail rolls at least one shield, the most wounds Drak Whiptail may take for this attack is one. If Drak Whiptail recieves no wounds from a normal attack and the attacking figure is adjacent to Drak Whiptail, that figure receives one wound.

The image of the figure again for reference:


I wanted him to obviously play a different role than Zogross and I think I accomplished that. Zogross uses his Tribal Protection to his advantage for Opportunity Strike, where Drak uses Combat Challenge to his advantage for Shield Spike. Combat Challenge also allows Drak to engage a pod and take heat off of his bonding units. All three of his bonding units like that - the Greenscales don't die and continue to earn their King bonuses, the Spiders don't take shots and are able to use Entangling Web, and the DKs as a 2-man squad might enjoy it the most because they can move freely without getting picked off.

He has the look in his face like the Venoc Vipers do, making Frenzy a fitting choice. He looks like a person to be taken seriously, much like Kreel, so Combat Challenge plays well.

There's been a split about whether his spiked shield should be represented as a power. I know @superfrog liked it while @Scytale was hesitant because most figure's "unique" parts aren't represented as powers. There is a precedent though. Agent Carr's Sword of Reckoning, the 10th's Bayonets, 2/4 Airborne's Grenades, Arkmer's Staff of Lerkintin, amongst others.

His downfall is similar to that of other One Shield Defense units. Multiple attacks of sufficient hits should easily bring him down.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

I think Drak Whiptail in now ready for Pre-SoV. Completely revamped from the last time. Testing has shown him to be quite capable against other melee units. His bonding options love for him to tie down a pod of range units as they move in. The series of events when you are able to mix Combat Challenge with Zogross' Opportunity Strike and then maybe Shield Spike is a lot of fun and a good use of powers.

Elegant. Congratulations!

[superfrog]

I would suggest calling it "Spiked Shield Defense" to make it more immediately obvious that it's like One Shield Defense, and I think I'd change Combat Challenge to "must attack a figure with Combat Challenge."

I'm not sure 5 attack fits the mini very well (I picked this up at MAD Bros last tourney and it's really cool!), so that might warrant a price drop if you decide to go to 4 attack.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by superfrog

I would suggest calling it "Spiked Shield Defense" to make it more immediately obvious that it's like One Shield Defense, and I think I'd change Combat Challenge to "must attack a figure with Combat Challenge."

I'm not sure 5 attack fits the mini very well (I picked this up at MAD Bros last tourney and it's really cool!), so that might warrant a price drop if you decide to go to 4 attack.

Those suggestions to the power titles and wording make sense. There is precedence for 5 attack Medium figures (Crixus, Retiarius, Alastair and the Kozuke Samurai are all 5/3 actually).

[superfrog]

They all have swords (I think?) and this dude has a club. If you think the design works significantly better at 5, that's definitely enough reason to keep it there though.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by superfrog

They all have swords (I think?) and this dude has a club. If you think the design works significantly better at 5, that's definitely enough reason to keep it there though.

Good point about the swords. Maybe he's significantly stronger than his mirror humanoids?

I mean, he wasn't tested at 4 attack so I wouldn't know if it's "significantly better", but 5 attack is more menacing than 4 so there's that. If others feel 4 would be better (and/or more thematic) I'd be ok with testing at that attack value.