The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

We'll forgive you for forgetting about Khosumet.

He's easy to forget. Still, the precedent has been set for Enhancements to be +dice or +D20 roll. So I still think the power or the power name needs to change in order to align with precedent. But still, I think Thrall Supremacy here checks all the mechanical and thematic boxes that the design is trying to go for.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

He's easy to forget. Still, the precedent has been set for Enhancements to be +dice or +D20 roll. So I still think the power or the power name needs to change in order to align with precedent. But still, I think Thrall Supremacy here checks all the mechanical and thematic boxes that the design is trying to go for.

Not going to lie.. I didn't read the power and assumed it was a d20 Enhancement for Mindless Pack. Yeah that'll need updated one way or another.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I like the design. Few thoughts to help refine it:

- remove the "title" to his name...it's clunky

There are several "the Kyrie Warrior"s and "the Viking Champion"s, a "the Darklord", "the Black Dragon" and a "the Glacian Swog Rider" that say 'hi'. There's also a particular reference I'm going for with the name, but I'm open to alternatives. "Necro-mage Elbad" maybe? Though to me that sounds like it elevates him from his half-thrall status a little too much.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

- Make his class Thrall (a unique hero thrall would be pretty cool imo)

And also quite strong with Nicholas being able to bring back a Ranged figure with 4 Life, as opposed to the melee commons. Plus, he's not quite a mindless thrall like the others, hence the "Necro-Assistant" title.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

- Enhancement powers are usually adding dice...so probably change the name of the power, but I'd prefer just calling it Thrall Supremacy. That way you avoid other undead interactions for the D20 buff, you still buff the mindless pack AND he can help the Bloodburst and other Thralls that may end up using D20 powers. Thrall Supremacy would be simple and thematic for a Unique Thrall hero.

In addition to the previously-mentioned Khosumet, there's also Valguard who enhances without adding dice. Now that I think about it, though, I may have called it Mindless Pack Command at some point (though I've lost previous iterations of the card). Does that hit better? Reinforces his role "above" the other Thralls again, as well.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

- The second power is pretty cool, though I think you could just as easily have the power change his class rather than all the extra wording

EQUAL STATUS
If you control a Unique Army Card with the class of Lord or Duke, for this game Elbad's class is Duke, regardless of what is listed on the card.

That way the mechanics are the same but the theme is more rich, i.e. Elbad was a servant thrall, but considered an Equal to Nicholas. He's the foremost of all the Thralls AND his powers indicate that.

Except that only works with the Skeletons, and not the Thralls or Rechets, so no go there. Also, he may be above the other Thralls, but not that far above, and additionally I doubt the Esenweins would take kindly to a servant being considered "equal" to them.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I really like it and I think doing Thrall Supremacy + Equal Status would still achieve what you're going for but in a more refined and restrained way (not auto activating +1 thrall but just buffing the roll). Supremacy is also pretty cool because like I said it allows him to buff the bloodburst and future thralls.

I'm glad you found the idea likable and appreciate the suggestions. I don't think they quite line up with what the figure is trying to do for the most part, though. "Thrall Supremacy" is certainly better than "Undead Supremacy", but I was trying to be a little more creative than the rehashed d20 buff.

[Scytale]

Elbad, the Necro-Assistant

This design is a mix of things I like and things I don't, but the ones I don't I fairly minor. Overall it's an interesting design that's nicely restrained in stats.

The bio is overly complicated. Frankly, it feels it's being forced into the Esenwein story when it doesn't even need to be connected to the Esenweins. That's not a big deal though, and not really a problem, except I worry that it's holding back the design. For example, Elbad doesn't have to be a thrall creation at all.

Mindless Pack Enhancement is a cool idea for a power. My only worry that it will make him a must-pick in a Thrall army. That may not be a bad thing, though. I don't mind "Mindless Pack Enhancement" though it's not perfect; I'm against anything "Supremacy" unless it does +1 to the d20, like every other Supremacy power.

Necromatic Nexus is a cool idea, though I suspect of little value in practice. It would take a lot of playtesting to be sure, but Elbad isn't tough enough to put him near the front lines, and not worth any order markers otherwise. No, I don't really think that Nexus is good enough to warrant order markers for positioning for any of the existing summoning Undead. He's the Khosumet of the Thralls that way, just someone to leave in the back for the enhancement. I don't actually mind that for this unit, but if Nexus is a dead power that's a problem. That could be solved by making him a Thrall as was suggested, as he could get some turns in with other Thralls and the player wouldn't be so afraid to lose him, though the "smart undead" concept doesn't fit the "Mindless Pack" theme so well, nor does the power level you have him at as you noted. (It does lead to some potentially interesting gameplay decisions, though. Do I kill Elbad if he'll just come back, or try to focus my attention elsewhere?)

I don't like the class Champion. It's a very broad term so I can't deny it outright, but it doesn't feel right for the design.

I don't like the term "Necro-assistant." It's descriptive for what you want as a concept, but it sounds kinda lame to me, to be blunt. I'd like it better as a class than a name, oddly enough.

[Chris Perkins]

I've been summoned via the magical tag, so I'll add a few thoughts on Ebol. It should be noted I have little to no experience with SoV designing (and how they view changes in the meta), so my thoughts are just based on competitive army building. I'm also far from an expert on the C3V meta, with most of my experience being classic scape only. I played somewhere between 5 - 8 games against HS2010 w/ Ebol.

1) I think the biggest effect Ebol has on the meta is boosting the power level of 2 types of armies:
A) A/A+ junk with rats. I think this is Ebol's best build, and I think he greatly increases the potential of Q9/Raelin/Hydra/Rats. My biggest concern is how much stronger Ebol makes this build; however, I haven't played this matchup and can't be sure. But Ebol + ratsx3 is extremely good. Regardless of Ebol's place in (or not in) SoV, I think it's important for Ebol to be priced based on this potential to make sure the A+ junk with rats can't field Ebol comfortably under 550 points.
B) Mixes of unique squads and heroes. I think this is the best "addition" Ebol can make to the meta in theory, as it strengthens their standing in the meta to be closer to massed A/A- commons.

2) I think Ebol is much stronger the closer you get to 600 points. I don't think Ebol is a good Raelin replacement, but rather excels as an addition, much like Ranjit.

3) I think Ebol changes the meta more (exactly how much more, I'm not sure) than Ranjit because Ebol helps A+ units more than Ranjit (you want to take more than 1 OM per round on Q9) does whereas Ranjit helps lower cost unique figures like Guilty more.

4) There are good Ebol counter armies against almost anything but A+ junk (basically Hydra & rats counter the Ebol counters really well): Cyprien, Syvarris, Zetacron, & Phantom Knights come to mind.

5) I don't think Ebol + Children x a lot is that good; B+ at best, more likely B. The lack of range (if you include a ranged figure, you basically can only use OM3 on him which is a significant hindrance) is devastating. Many competitive maps have choke points that can be used to nullify the 6 activations you would get on OM1. Bonding mele is significantly stronger because of the 2 turns allowing more intricate maneuvering & 15 activations per turn via bonding is equal to 15 activations via children. When you hit an army with any of the counters from (4) in it, you just lose. Their 3 defense, instead of 4, hurts a lot during rounds 1 - 2 while you slow roll them.

6) I am a fan of adding extra strategy to who you attack based on OM placement, and I liked how there are situations with Ebol where you're better off not attacking anything on your turn 3 to kill him early in a round instead. It's a neat situation to add into the meta, in my view.

7) I don't think the OM change at the meta level is that different from Ranjit. With both armies, I can look at my opponent's board position and predict, with 80% - 90% accuracy or better, which figures will end up taking a turn when. Both nullify the 'X' and make reading your opponent's OMs 'face up'. To me, that's the main difference in the meta; not which card the OMs are physically placed on.

8 ) Sensory overload is an annoyance for the player fielding Ebol, but unlikely to lose them the game (unless one of the counters from (4) has already done 2-3 wounds on Ebol early).

Just a summary of my thoughts on the figure, based on the playtesting I've done with HS2010.

[Sheep]

Appreciate the comments Chris. Whether it changes anyone's mind or not about Ebol, I don't know, but they are useful for my regardless.

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

1) I think the biggest effect Ebol has on the meta is boosting the power level of 2 types of armies:
A) A/A+ junk with rats. I think this is Ebol's best build, and I think he greatly increases the potential of Q9/Raelin/Hydra/Rats. My biggest concern is how much stronger Ebol makes this build; however, I haven't played this matchup and can't be sure. But Ebol + ratsx3 is extremely good. Regardless of Ebol's place in (or not in) SoV, I think it's important for Ebol to be priced based on this potential to make sure the A+ junk with rats can't field Ebol comfortably under 550 points.

I do want to touch on this army type that Ebol can boost mostly because Vydar and I did play it and I think I can add something new to the conversation.

The problem with Ebol + Rats + Junk w/ or w/o Raelin is that the goal of the army is the same as it is without Ebol, and your Order Marker activations pretty well mirror that. It is rarely worth it to spend a whole activation on Rats mid-game, Ebol or not. Vydar was mostly attacking up front with Knights with the occasional Nilfy OM to maybe thin out the Rat screen without the Scatters replacing the ones the Knights did kill. I really don't think I spent an OM on the Rats or Raelin once I got into my setup. It was all on Q9 until the Knights ran into my screen and then I used the Hydra clear the Knights. Wash, rinse, repeat. (Except my dice were struggling a little bit so it wasn't quite that easy. )

While it's nothing to scuff at, Ebol + Raelin + Rats can be deceptively powerful in the sense that, as Vydar mentioned in his post, it is only once you start having 3+ cards to manage that you start to consider adding Ebol. I really would not count Raelin or Rats as one of those 3 cards as nothing about the Raelin-Rat combo really changes with Ebol. Raelin still loves to use the first OM of the game to get into position and stay there until she dies and the Rats still love using 2-3 OMs before leaving it up to Scatter to do the rest.

Now of course who you activate behind the Rat screen and inside of Raelin's aura can be affected by Ebol, but with menacers like Q9 and the Hydra, you could easily do without Ebol as well. I would think swiss-army knife, RTW-esque, builds would benefit much more highly from Ebol than the sit-and-shoot army that this post has been about.

[Dysole]

Actually midgame OMs on rats or Raelin is often a really good play as @dok will attest to. When you do those can very much be key to whether or not you win the game. Being able to flex those away is... really powerful.

~Dysole, somewhere in the middle on the "Ebol is bad for future design" argument

[Sheep]

Somehow I missed this last night.

Originally Posted by Dysole

Actually midgame OMs on rats or Raelin is often a really good play as @dok will attest to. When you do those can very much be key to whether or not you win the game. Being able to flex those away is... really powerful.

~Dysole, somewhere in the middle on the "Ebol is bad for future design" argument

I suppose I was mostly talking about the A+ sit-and-shoot army but yes, you are correct that there are some key situations where a Raelin or Rats OM can be clutch midgame.

I’ve actually been curious to see if Dok would add his thoughts to this as I know he loves Rats.

I also know, from our OnlineCon VC Allowed game, that he likes Varks, which is one faction I think highly benefits from Ebol being able to see which Varks are most beneficial to put an OM on at any given time.

Thanks for your thoughts Dysole.

[dok]

Originally Posted by Dysole

Actually midgame OMs on rats or Raelin is often a really good play as @dok will attest to. When you do those can very much be key to whether or not you win the game. Being able to flex those away is... really powerful.

~Dysole, somewhere in the middle on the "Ebol is bad for future design" argument

In my experience it's rare that you regret an OM on Deathreavers, but you often regret lacking an OM on Deathreavers.

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by heroscaper2010

Appreciate the comments Chris. Whether it changes anyone's mind or not about Ebol, I don't know, but they are useful for my regardless.

I do want to touch on this army type that Ebol can boost mostly because Vydar and I did play it and I think I can add something new to the conversation.

The problem with Ebol + Rats + Junk w/ or w/o Raelin is that the goal of the army is the same as it is without Ebol, and your Order Marker activations pretty well mirror that. It is rarely worth it to spend a whole activation on Rats mid-game, Ebol or not. Vydar was mostly attacking up front with Knights with the occasional Nilfy OM to maybe thin out the Rat screen without the Scatters replacing the ones the Knights did kill. I really don't think I spent an OM on the Rats or Raelin once I got into my setup. It was all on Q9 until the Knights ran into my screen and then I used the Hydra clear the Knights. Wash, rinse, repeat. (Except my dice were struggling a little bit so it wasn't quite that easy. )

While it's nothing to scuff at, Ebol + Raelin + Rats can be deceptively powerful in the sense that, as Vydar mentioned in his post, it is only once you start having 3+ cards to manage that you start to consider adding Ebol. I really would not count Raelin or Rats as one of those 3 cards as nothing about the Raelin-Rat combo really changes with Ebol. Raelin still loves to use the first OM of the game to get into position and stay there until she dies and the Rats still love using 2-3 OMs before leaving it up to Scatter to do the rest.

Now of course who you activate behind the Rat screen and inside of Raelin's aura can be affected by Ebol, but with menacers like Q9 and the Hydra, you could easily do without Ebol as well. I would think swiss-army knife, RTW-esque, builds would benefit much more highly from Ebol than the sit-and-shoot army that this post has been about.

To an extent I agree with this - I do think that Ebol improves weaker hodge-podge armies more than Ebol improves A+ junk armies. But I still think the improvement to the A+ armies is more important in point allocation (not saying 80 is right or wrong) than the affect on hodge-podge because improving A+ armies (even slightly) is the bigger effect on the meta.

I do want to expand on one thing though from the A+ pods: Hydra. The biggest benefit of Hydra in the A+ armies is to have a huge heavy hitter ready and waiting for the right moment (threat against Cyprien, Grimnak, etc. closing in on your pod). But the hard part is guessing the right moment to switch from your ranged game to your mele game without burning an OM when Cyprien doesn't rush in because he's scared of hydra. And Hydra hurts the most from OMs after taking a few wounds (unlike Q9 or Braxas). I think Ebol's affect on improving Hydra's ability to: (1) react at the perfect time, & (2) avoid taking turns after losing 2 heads, is probably the single biggest effect on the A+ armies Ebol would be in.

There are times to move rats midgame with Ebol that you would otherwise lose out on, which is definitely nice, but having a 100% threat of 4x4 if your opponent gets close enough to attack Q9 in mele via swapping to Hydra for a turn is huge.

For clarity, I'm considering an army such as: Raelin, Ebol, Q9, Hydra, Rats x3 (580 pts).

This is again where I think Ebol affects the meta at 550+ pts more, because at less points you probably can't get Ebol, Hydra, & Q9 into the same army, at which point the OM switching is far less valuable.

[Sheep]

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

For clarity, I'm considering an army such as: Raelin, Ebol, Q9, Hydra, Rats x3 (580 pts).

This is what we played with Marcu added for 600pts against KoW x3, Gilbert, Nilfy, and Krav. You are dead on about the Hydra and that’s how I played it. I set a line of Rats just in front of the Hydra and Q9 with Raelin behind them and as soon as Vydar brought in his Knights I mowed them down with a Hydra activation. That was a boon to that army for sure. I think Himmelskralle is a similar figure who benefits in much of the same way where guessing when to put the OM on him is so difficult that Ebol makes the him much better.

[Sheep]

@Chris Perkins

If Ebol’s biggest effect in the A+ Pod army, and consequently on the meta, is the [one] OM that he can move to activate the Hydra whenever the army needs, at 600pts, once you have Q9, Hydra, Raelin, and Rats x3, would you say that Rygarn already does that for 10pts more with way less risk and more reliability? Further more, would you rather fill out the final 100pts with Ebol and Marcu or Rygarn and Isamu?