Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by superfrog

I'd like to nominate Mist and Shadow by Flash_19. (2 BftU, 1 TT)



It has some of the classic glacier-hugging level 3 snow runs that we know and love from our favorite Tundra maps like Platypus, Draugur, and Yngvild Pass, but adds interest with well-placed level 4 spots and lots of level 2 shadow.

The LoS blockers are placed effectively (I appreciate the inclusion of the 3-hex rock outcrops that I'm so prone to cannibalize for shadow) and the map has a very clean aesthetic.

It's an OHS staple (S40, S44, S47) and has also been used in Utah (December 2022, October 2021) and Oregon (October 2021).

Following up this nomination with an upvote that could have/should have come sooner but I got busy focusing my attention on other maps (hopefully another 3 votes (!) coming from me in the next month-ish).

One thing that I’ll point out here that makes Mist and Shadow such a good example of a tundra map is the placement of the medium blockers and how the map flexes to compensate for that placement. Flash is obviously known for hex-shaped maps, and Mist and Shadow is kinda-but-not-really a hex shape. If you chop off the SZs it does make a pretty clear hex shape, but Flash smartly made this map a bit longer than a full hex would be so that the 3 and 4 hex glaciers/outcrops can breathe a bit away from the center while still providing some definition to the map’s pathing.

This means that while the center is dominated by the 6-hex glacier, the edges of the map through its middle are relatively free-flowing and can each have their own level 4 height features without getting choked up (pushing the glyph to the edge also helps with this).

Overall, Mist and Shadow is a winner. to induct.

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Yes, your assumptions are correct. Lodin/Dagmar/Kelda could be up top where as the "stronger" glyphs should generally speaking be on the bottom.

Dagmar and Kelda aren't weak glyphs by any means.

I think Dagmar is much stronger than Wannok, initiative switches are often a decisive moment in matches. When I look back at games about half of them are decided by some key(s) initiative(s).
Meanwhile Wannok is good only in endgame or when you already have a strong position and are able to turtle, it takes an enourmous amount of time to dish out damage, and a lot of armies have some non relevant guy to put wannok wouds. The number of game here wannok put 3 wounds is super low and the number of games where wannok is actually decisive in the game is even lower to me.

Kelda is a huge factor in a lot of games it's in, as long as there is a big hero you know Kelda is gonna draw all the attention.

[Sir Heroscape]

Agree to disagree. In my experience that hasn’t been the case.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Dagmar and Kelda aren't weak glyphs by any means.

I think Dagmar is much stronger than Wannok, initiative switches are often a decisive moment in matches. When I look back at games about half of them are decided by some key(s) initiative(s).
Meanwhile Wannok is good only in endgame or when you already have a strong position and are able to turtle, it takes an enourmous amount of time to dish out damage, and a lot of armies have some non relevant guy to put wannok wouds. The number of game here wannok put 3 wounds is super low and the number of games where wannok is actually decisive in the game is even lower to me.

Kelda is a huge factor in a lot of games it's in, as long as there is a big hero you know Kelda is gonna draw all the attention.

I'm not sure I entirely agree, haha (not that it matters a whole lot in the grand scheme of things).

While Dagmar can be very important a few times per game (often just 1-2), it's not usually important enough to want to hold for the whole game.

And while I agree that Wannok doesn't often matter much, it can very much define endgames when the available life pool in each army is lower.

[Vydar_XLIII]

I'd argue that the powerful effect of a given glyph isn't really what matters here. What actually matters is how a given glyph affects board positioning.

Dagmar is really powerful when you need it. But as SF said, you're not trying to hold it all game the same way you would try to hold Valda for the entire game, or Wannok in an endgame. Kelda is also really powerful when you can get it to go off, but there is nothing to hold on to afterwards and then it stops affecting the way figures get positioned.

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Agree to disagree. In my experience that hasn’t been the case.

Meanwhile Sir Heroscape in 90% of his videos "18! YAS I GOT INIT!! WOOOO!"

Don't take it seriously I'm just joking.

[Foudzing]

Slated by Sir Heroscape:

Simply put, the packs of 5 rock and dungeon level 3 hexes are too close to startzones and too hard to attack into, so too strong. All that often leads to 2-hills "yours and mine" situations with very low incentive to go forward. The only stronger spots on the map are the two single hexes level 4 spots which are in my opinion not enough to change the dynamic of the map.
The road is useful (I like road lines going SZ to SZ compared to those that go perpendicular to charge direction) and helps to go forward but unfortunately doesn't lead to any good spots to attack into those hills, and still range can just use the level 3 hexes that aren't adjacent to road if needed.

To me the most important points for WoS are balance and that the map gives fast paced games and I think Slated fall short in those categories so I vote no to induct Slated in the WoS.



Song of the Walrus by Typhon2222:

So with this new version to me Typhon2222 succeeded to create a balanced map which also leads to fast paced games. It's a hard feat to complete especially with that few terrain pieces.
The central area is way less cloggy, it's much harder to completely blockade the central area than it was on the previous versions. I feel this new Song of the Walrus can be played in a much higher variety of formats than the previous versions and is like totally fine in a tournament setup.
That's said, as opposed to some previous vesions where the sides were strong, in this one, unless you purposely set up very strong glyphs the sides simply aren't interesting enough to me, and majority of the games the only viable strategy is to push the middle.
I feel there weren't enough strategic options and choices available to me when battling on Song of the Walrus and while I liked my games on it, a lot of them looked very similar.


So if WoS goal is to asnwer the question "is this map good for a tournament?" I think Song of the Walrus absolutely passes, I wouldn't mind playing on it no matter the format. But if WoS is dedicated to be a library for the best competitive maps, those that challenge players the most, allow multiples strategies and lead to very different games, I think Song of the Walrus sightly fall short in that aspect and I think WoS is shifting towards the second goal, so I vote no to induct Song of the Walrus in the WoS.

[OEAO]

In case anyone's curious, here's the voting records of all members of WoS as of March 16, 2023:

Overall Map Pass Rate: 19/84 (23%)*
Maps with at Least 1 Upvote: 35/84 (42%)*
Total Votes: 99/230 (43%)

Current Judges: 87/205 (42%)
1Mmirg: 6/10 (60%)
BiggaBullFrog: 4/6 (67%)
Dok: 24/53 (45%)
Flash 19: 12/33 (36%)
Foudzing: 3/11 (27%)
OEAO: 21/63 (33%)
superfrog: 17/29 (59%)

Emeritus: 12/25 (48%)
Bengi: 0/1 (0%)
Dignan: 5/14 (36%)
kevindola: 1/2 (50%)
Killometer: 0/1 (0%)
Kinseth: 2/2 (100%)
Typhon2222: 4/5 (80%)

*Map pass rate and maps with at least 1 upvote do not include any maps currently in the queue.

Voting totals include votes on maps in the queue.

[Typhon2222]

Fun to see these statistics.

[superfrog]

Song of the Walrus by Typhon2222



I think it's a testament to Typhon's persistence that this map has come back into use. The original was used at GenCon in 2014, and was used several times in OHS as well. And although it was a pretty good map, it uniquely suffered from a choked middle, with big/close LoS Blockers. One fun feature of the original was the outer level 4 hexes, which kinda gave the map a three lanes feel (out of necessity, since the center got sloggy quickly).

The new version, to me, adds a marked improvement to the center, and retains some of the strategic options of the edges, although to a lesser extent.

Originally I was worried that this map would have a rightward pull, since the safe level 2 is on the right. But two things stop that from being an issue, in my experience. The first is that the level 2 leads to level 3 which leads to level 4 which is decidedly central. Any podding army on level 2 is easily snowballed. The second is that the left level 1 is actually safer than level 2 (due to superior LoS protection) and still leads directly into the action. The level 2 that runs along the level 3 on each side of the center is crucial to attacking up at level 4, and it's easily accessible no matter where development begins. The left side also has the most direct route to the glyph and has adjacent height over it, so it sees play for that reason as well.

I do think the map could probably be improved by joining the right level 2 outside the big blockers to the central level 2 (adding an additional 2 hexes). I have not checked whether this is possible (sorry!). I have not found this dead-end level 2 to be abusable but I think streamlining it would improve strategic counterattacks on the map. I would also not be mad about a revised SZ that had a clearer delineation between swamp/ice but the existing one is clear and visually simple enough (back 3 rows and only two terrain types).

Overall, this version of SotW provides a more dynamic central experience, with enough counterattacking options to give interesting and varied gameplay. The balance holds well for all types of matchups.

to induct

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Slated by Sir Heroscape



For me, this map has a high bar to clear to be considered a tournament staple due to its high terrain requirements. 3 expansions is pretty steep to begin with, and 2 dungeons also is a limiting factor for many collections. Currently, 3 WoS maps use a subset of these sets (Wyrmwalk, Stygian Rift, and Dance of the Dryads). To be clear, I think it's okay to have WoS maps that use more or less terrain than other WoS maps. But I know from experience in the community that Wyrmwalk is not used as often as it should be (it's a fantastic map) because its terrain requirements are so steep.

Of course, the sets used on Slated can all be very helpful for gameplay. Jungle helps protect advancing melee, shadow helps figures advancing and attacking up, lava helps prevent podding, and road provides a speed boost to help melee close the gap to ranged figures.

Unfortunately, I don't think any of those sets are utilized fully on this map in practice:

• The lava 7-hexes are so close to the SZ that they get instantly moved over and have basically no effect in gameplay. The level 3 lava 2-hexes are fine (I particularly think the one extending back towards the SZ is well-placed) but the safe level 3 is easier to reach and harder for the opponent to attack, so that draws the attention.
  
• The road can be helpful if you take the left path to the back side of the safe level 3, but the central road is mostly ignored in my experience, and there's not any advantage to lateral movement.
  
• The central 8 shadow spaces see some play, but the other 10 mostly don't see any use.
  
• Other than the bush adjacent to 3 road hexes on the left, most of the jungle feels "out of the way" and doesn't help protect figures trying to get where they're trying to go.

Basically, the strongest point on this map is the safe level 3, and nothing else the map does is enough to stop that from dominating gameplay. This leads to a lot of games where the armies collect on their own safe level 3 and then stare at each other.

to induct

[Flash_19]

Song of the Walrus


To be honest, I was not a fan of the original version. This version, however, greatly improves upon the weaknesses of the original. I love the revision of the center and feel like it adds much needed depth to the gameplay in the center of the map. While the map has an obvious right pull – the pull does not detract from the importance of moving left out of the start zone as well. Bringing units to the left and back towards the center was extremely valuable in positioning yourself to control a glyph or help flank units in the center, and with runs of level 2 height through the center, this feels like a viable option. I do believe the sides are my least favorite part of the map — going right does give you a slight advantage over controlling the glyph, but I never found it to be enough of an issue that I would consider it map breaking.

I don’t know that I love the single hex glaciers very much – I think they congest things just a little more than they provide LoS blockers, but I don’t dislike it enough to give the map a downvote. I’m always impressed with what Typhon does with so limited terrain, and this map is no exception. However, I have to say that all the gaps in the map (spots where you can see the table through “holes” in the map) make my acid reflux flare up. Call me painfully impressed.

I vote to induct Song of the Walrus.


Halftime Thoughts Inspired by Slated


Even though others have already downvoted the map, I want to chime in and belabor a point yet again using this map as an example. I hope my thoughts will be beneficial to all mapmakers who aim to see one of their maps in WoS, and really hope they don’t come across as condemning or overly critical.

I have heard a fair amount of feedback on this map from people who have played it, and most of it is all the same. It pulls too hard to the right due to the distribution of lava and safe height positions to the point of being problematic (an oversimplification of the issue, but this is not intended to be a review of the map). After the nomination, I asked about this specific issue and if there had been any feedback relating to what I saw as an issue. Due to the short amount of time that had elapsed between the map being posted, played at a tournament, and then nominated for WoS, there apparently wasn’t any feedback.

I firmly believe that time and community experience are the best judges of maps. The two-tournament requirement was designed to provide mapmakers with an opportunity to benefit from both. Getting a map played in two same-month tournaments, then submitting a nomination the day after the second tournament does not facilitate the process of feedback and refinement that makes decent maps great. To use the first map in this batch of reviews as an example - according to the name of the PDF for Typhon’s Song of the Walrus, that was the 5th version of that map. This idea holds true for many if not most of the maps that have been accepted into WoS. I know for a fact that the process of refinement and improving upon past versions has been for a significant number of Typhon’s maps (if not all of them), and it’s part of what makes him such a great map maker.

Once again, time and community experience often make all the difference when it comes to making a decent map a great map. I understand that feedback can be difficult to obtain at times, but it gets even more difficult to obtain if you only give yourself a short time to receive it. From my experience, people are usually pretty responsive to calls for feedback, especially on Discord.

Caothland


I appreciate the refinement and attention to feedback that went into this version of the map. Though I never played the original version, I’m sure this version is much better.

I largely enjoyed my games on this map, but I do have a couple issues with it. Six-move figures are too comfortable on this map. There are 7 spots on level 3 where 6-move figures can move to from the start zone, and 5 of those spaces are on the rock side of the map. In comparison, there is only 1 spot where a 5 move figure can make it onto level 3 from the start zone. This is one of the those maps where the difference between 5 and 6-move figures just feels too advantageous to the 6-move figures.

The vast majority of play on this map ends up in the exact same place – and when a player takes control of those 5 hexes of level 4 height, it’s usually game over. The bottom half of the map just doesn’t have enough draw, even when other glyphs are used besides the unique attack glyph (which I don’t believe is a good choice for the map).

A few other issues:
1) The bottom middle section of the map is very fast. A death chaser could attack the opponent’s start zone on turn 1.
2) I don’t love the combination of the north glyph placement on level 3 height with essentially all the map’s level 3 and level 4 height so close to it, even if it is a lower powered glyph. It serves to make that area even stronger and more of a focus.
3) I don’t like so much jungle coverage on level 3 – some maps get away with it, I don’t think this map is one of them. Most of the jungle is placed well though.

Having said all that, it looks really good aesthetically – I appreciate the work that has gone into preserving the aesthetic. I also appreciate the clear start zones. Overall, I’d be fine with seeing it at a local tournament, but I don’t feel like it’s ready for the highest levels of play.

I vote to induct Caothland.

[Sir Heroscape]

While your comments and review on Slated is fair...I'll have to disagree pretty much on every point of your assessment on Caothland.

- Development for 6-move figures is a fair critique...but I'd point out that Turmoil allows a 5:2 ratio for lvl 3 development. Better than 7:1 sure...but still...that's one aspect of a map that doesn't necessarily break it...no map is perfect.

- Interesting you felt the rock section got the most play. I've played on this map probably more than anyone, and the fast development on the low half (intentional) is quite advantageous as you can go low ground, then hop up on the opponents side of the rock to try and gain advantage from there before they get setup. MANY of my games have played for the low ground "speed run" because of how quickly you can advance to your opponents position to lock them up while they develop.

- The DC comment makes no sense. there's literally 1 space (same level) where a DC can engage into the SZ on turn 1. That's FAR from broken, especially when 2 inducted maps already allow that to happen. Dance of the Dryads allows a turn 1 SZ engagement (same level) by a DC and Turmoil allows 2 SZ engagements (from HEIGHT)! I reject that assessment as a fault of this map.

- a Glyph on lvl 3 would be a first (all WoS maps have 0 or 1 for glyphs except Platypus) so I'm not surprised that ruffled feathers, but again...this specific, weak glyph is intentional...so it HAS to have height around it in order to give ample opportunity to contest. Would you prefer the glyph on lvl 3 be isolated on it's own? no, because then the glyph becomes a strong high point. At it's location, there is plenty of height to contest it...and even then it's only relevant at end-of-round so you're not really gaining any bonus or fighting for it DURING the round. my tests proved it was useful to have when you gained the position sure...but there was ample opportunity for counterplay, especially with the lowground shadow to attack up on the height of the rock.

- WoS maps with lvl3 jungle coverage: Battlefield 23, Fulcrum, Percolator.
Hexes of coverage, respectively: 2, 10, 6
Adjacent lvl4 to "counter" position, respectively: 0, 4, 0
Caothland sits at 6 spaces of coverage on lvl3 with 2 spaces of lvl4 that can attack down on 4/6 of the lvl3 jungle spaces adjacent. For lvl3 jungle being considered so strong, I'd say that's pretty good counterplay to allow adjacent lvl4...especially when 2 out of the 3 inducted maps that allow lvl3 jungle coverage have literally NO such counterplay.

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That all said, I appreciate the feedback and the time ya'll have spent reviewing. Please remove all my current maps in the queue from further review.

Thank you.