Would You Like to See Myvra as a new General for VC?

[William099]

I was part of the Myvra project when we tried to revive it, and it went for a few monthes and then lost steam again. I don't think there is enough interest for it to stay alive really. Much as I'd like it to.

We also had the start of a story developed anyway, Myvra was a kyrie that found her own additional wellspring and while remaining neutral was being courted by ambassadors from both sides to join the conflict.

Latest workshop threads
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ighlight=Myvra

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ighlight=Myvra

Fan fic
http://www.heroscapers.com/community...ighlight=Myvra

And having glanced through this thread for the most part I'm just going to say working with Myvra was a lot more fun when it wasn't binding or having to be done to please the community at large.

And I'm with the others who don't think that the SOV really needs to be changed. I don't understand where all the discontent comes from with the work the SOV has been doing. I think they have done a fine job, and every body just needs to lay off. There is no need to debate or discuss. If it's not broken don't fix it.

[Dad_Scaper]

I can see steampunk very naturally fitting in Vydar. Give me a regimented army or police force, enforcing the rigid class structure associated with steampunk, and I can see units for Utgar or Einar. The underclass heroes struggling for dignity in the dirty streets, trampled underfoot by the overlord's minions or the casual cruelty of the landed gentry? Aquilla. Possibly even Jandar. Jack the Ripper as a steampunk-style Valkrill monster? Why not?

I *love* open debate. And I think it's an interesting discussion whether & when we would introduce a new general. I suppose I just want to see a really good reason to do so, and I'm not sure introducing new factions/themes is good enough.

And FWIW, I am a big fan of . He serves a role in the pantheon, I wish he'd been introduced earlier, and I'm glad to be a part of filling his ranks through the C3V. So I'm not against new generals as a matter of principle. Not for it as a matter of principle, either. I just want to wait & see when and whether it's necessary.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

I *love* open debate. And I think it's an interesting discussion whether & when we would introduce a new general. I suppose I just want to see a really good reason to do so, and I'm not sure introducing new factions/themes is good enough.

If introducing new themes isn't a good enough reason, then what is? I'm not having a go here, I just don't think I understand your statement.

Originally Posted by Son of Arathorn

- I have not known D_S as long as some on the site, but I've seen him in action as a member while I was inside C3V as a PAM, read accounts of his tournaments, and observed his feedback as a Judge in the SoV project. He is an esteemed member of the community, but can only be pushed so far. Lazy Orang has, intentionally or unintentionally, consistently pushed his buttons in a fashion which I deem to be insensitive by questioning decisions which required a great deal of deliberation with impunity, and has generally chosen to ignore the arguments of others to the contrary in relation to posts which, in my opinion, make little sense. One has little right to complain if they poke someone with a sharp stick and expect not to be poked back, eventually, a principle which could be applied to many of Lazy Orang's efforts in the last few days, and should be met with civil discussion rather than accusation.

Believe me, I never meant to be insensitive, and it would sadden me if I have been, but could I please explain my point of view?

The only thread in which I was actually questioning decisions already made was the SoV thread. In this thread and the Suggestions thread I have only tried to put forward new ideas. I have always tried to be respectful and deferential. I have generally found that I do not share the general opinions of those in VC, but I have not criticised you for that - rather, I've just put my point of view out there. I am more liberal than most payers when it comes to what figures to use and I respect those differences. I also understand others reasons for not wanting a C3G style Public Design thread and not wanting to add a new General - I may personally disagree with these points of view, but I respect them nonetheless, and consider them perfectly valid. It does not irritate me when people disagree with me and choose not to run with my suggestions. The only times I've been even slightly irritated have been when it has seemed to me that people have dismissed my opinions and suggestions without putting forward their reasons for doing so. In other words, it isn't being disagreed with or dismissed that irritates me - it's not understanding why people disagree with me. Everyone has a right to their opinion and I'm not trying to force anyone to change their minds. What I am doing is putting forward my own opinions and asking why people have formed their own opinions on the subject and why they do things the way they do - the very definition of a debate. I admit, I have a questioning mind and have been a more active debater than most, but I really have just been trying to have a civil discussion of these points. If it appears otherwise then I aplogise, and I would ask if you could explain to me via PM precisely what I'm doing wrong.

[Arch-vile]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

If introducing new themes isn't a good enough reason, then what is? I'm not having a go here, I just don't think I understand your statement.

I believe Dad_Scaper is saying that the new factions Myrva could summon could easily be used by the existing generals. Why does a new general need to exist for these new factions and themes to be used? Personally, I think it would be more interesting to flesh out the personalities of the existing generals rather than create a whole new one.

[Dad_Scaper]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

If introducing new themes isn't a good enough reason, then what is? I'm not having a go here, I just don't think I understand your statement.

No, I know you're not "having a go," and it's a fair question. First of all, I hope you thought about my most recent post before this one, where I laid out different ways steampunk could fit into the different existing generals. When I think about the genre steampunk, which is not so narrow as it used to be, I think of age of steam technology, with airships and bronze and steam. Another important component of steampunk - if anything, this component is universal, where the "technology" component can be fantasy or science fiction (consider China Mieville's fantasy/steampunk Perdido Street Station or Paolo Bacigalupi's science fiction/steampunk The Windup Girl) - is the rigid class structure. There are the cloistered, powerful few, whose hand falls very heavily on the masses, huddled in the filthy streets.

A steampunk world is still a world, though, and the different people or creatures in it have their own moralities and their own tendencies, and those traits will normally be something you can capture in an existing general, as I tried to demonstrate above. You want a mass murderer roaming the filthy streets of your Steampunktown, murdering the runaways indiscriminately while the powers that be look on indifferently, or worse, are glad for this distraction from their corruption? Sounds like Valkrill to me. You want the general, commanding an army of steam-assisted soldiers? Why not Einar, or maybe Vydar? It doesn't need a new General. It just needs a little application of what we know about the current ones.

So, you ask, under what circumstances would I advocate introducing a new one? I think Aquilla was added because there was a design space for units that were of nature but not bucolic or peaceful nature. Not fey, or protectors of the woodlands, but nasty, poisonous things, like Sujoah, or destructive, mining dwarves or gun-toting Mohicans. There was design space in that aesthetic so, rightly or wrongly, they added Aquilla. I'm not sure I would have chosen to do so, but what I think they saw was essentially an unrepresented alignment. And I wouldn't judge, because, looking across the space of the designs that followed, I can see how it makes sense.

Valkrill was much more practical. Utgar was completely overloaded and featured a structure (alignment) that we might call Lawful Evil. The principal factions have some order to them, like the hierchical Eisenwein family or the regimented Marro, and there are disproportionately too many of them. So introducing Valkrill killed two birds with one stone: there is a new home for evil units, and it is easy to characterize the distinction between the two: Utgar is evil-as-sinister; Valkrill is evil-as-madness. Count Dracula is Utgar; Cthulu is Valkrill. The short answer to your question ("When would you introduce a new General") is "I don't know," but those are my thoughts about when it's been done in the past.

Moving on to the second part of your post, which I answer publicly, notwithstanding your request for a pm, for two reasons: (1) I am concerned that if I answer privately you might receive more of the *ahem* private communications than I suspect you already have, and people should know that it's ok to move on, and (2) you are not alone, others may benefit from hearing this as well. Veterans of this board will know I sometimes post things like this, and they are not, appearances notwithstanding, directed at any one person, they are just intended as little thoughts passing through my brain about the tricky world of interpersonal relations on a threaded message board:

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Believe me, I never meant to be insensitive, and it would sadden me if I have been, but could I please explain my point of view?

The only thread in which I was actually questioning decisions already made was the SoV thread.

Here is the thing: Nobody has a problem with making suggestions. Nobody has a problem with rocking the boat, I don't think, by suggesting this or that person or project should do something differently. It's not the questioning of decisions that I think is rubbing some people the wrong way.

Rather, it's, I think, the carelessness with which you sometimes appear to evaluate their opinions. Consider that in my preceding post I laid out all the ways in which steampunk might fit in to existing generals, and yet in the post I quote here you don't even acknowledge it. I know my post wasn't very long, at least not like this one is long (mea culpa), but I didn't post lightly, and you brushed past it without acknowledging I may have had a point.

When you are responding to what others write, it's very important to think carefully about their words and consider the possibility that they may have responded to you in a meaningful way. Try to give them credit.

First of all, there are no dummies here (yourself included), so they deserve that much, and second of all, people *hate* hearing things like "Why aren't you listening to me," because it changes a conversation from a debate about an idea to a debate about a person. It may be - and it normally is - that they did listen to you, but did not respond in the way you expected.

Please, no more apologies, and no more accusations that people are not listening. Because they are, and you can and should be finished offering and demanding apologies.

We good? Good.

[Son of Arathorn]

I've been looking over the discussions in the SoV, C3V Design Suggestion, and Myrva threads, and I've decided to share my opinion. Take it as you will.

- Both sections of Valhalla Customs are accessible through hard work, creativity, and perseverance. They are by no means unfairly exclusive, merely careful in who they choose to bring into the membership, and what units they choose to review. Quality control is essential to the continuation of HeroScape as a legitimate communal enterprise under the guidance of efforts by the fans. For this reason, SoV has a moral obligation to accept only the best of the best, and it is down to the custom creators of the community to turn out the best customs we can if we want to see them become canon via SoV.

- C3V does not pander to the tournament setting when designing units. Need I point out the Eilan Sidhe? The Marro Gnids? The Thralls? Similarly, SoV does not deliberately select underpowered units for review; the fact that the majority of units passed are considered underpowered only means that the best of the best are not of the cloth commonly seen on the competitive scene. Even then, the Zettian Infantry demonstrate a unit passed by SoV which is not only competitive, but has made an entire faction competitive.

- I have not known D_S as long as some on the site, but I've seen him in action as a member while I was inside C3V as a PAM, read accounts of his tournaments, and observed his feedback as a Judge in the SoV project. He is an esteemed member of the community, but can only be pushed so far. Lazy Orang has, intentionally or unintentionally, consistently pushed his buttons in a fashion which I deem to be insensitive by questioning decisions which required a great deal of deliberation with impunity, and has generally chosen to ignore the arguments of others to the contrary in relation to posts which, in my opinion, make little sense. One has little right to complain if they poke someone with a sharp stick and expect not to be poked back, eventually, a principle which could be applied to many of Lazy Orang's efforts in the last few days, and should be met with civil discussion rather than accusation.

- From my point of view, when Aquilla was introduced, it presented a place for units, both Hasbro-issued and VC, which would not fit well with the other generals: Native Americans, Dwarves, Mariedians, Varkaanans, and others. Aquilla doesn't present a challenge in the extreme when it comes to custom expansion, possessing a small, though solid official base to build upon. It was not a necessary addition, but it did enhance the game in ways which I believe to be beneficial and exciting. Valkrill, on the other hand, did not have sufficient time to grow under Wizards of the Coast, and yet VC has done a terrific job expanding his armies in a unique manner characteristic with his different breed of evil.

- Taking note of my observations on Aquilla and Valkrill above, I believe that most possible creative additions to the armies of all seven generals have been accounted for. Steampunk can be anywhere from Aquilla to Vydar to Valkrill, insane stuff can find its place in Valkrill or Aquilla, abstract fantasy can go wherever it pleases, depending upon the underlying disposition, and the arts only has so many possible representations, all of which can fit under one general or another. Myvra is not needed to further expand the game in the realm of VC, though a customs project dedicated to producing Myrva customs would not be unreasonable.


~SoA

[Lazy Orang]

Thank you for that post, Dad_Scaper! Thank you for explaining where I was going wrong - I'll bear the specifics of that in future. When it comes to Myvra, that post has actually won me over, at least to a degree. I can definitely see where you're coming from, and I can now actually see the other Generals having steampunk units now (a new homeland that's steampunk based would be awesome ). I do think Myvra is still an interesting concept, and I'll probably end up using some of Deliriant's original units in my own private games, but I don't think her as necessary as I originally did and I can see why the rest of you would think otherwise.

In response to the end of your post - yes, we good indeed.

[lefton4ya]

I know a lot of people said no to this voting, but I think it may be time to put some new life into C3V. If they really want open up for expansion, they need to think of totally new ideas to add to heroscape. Steampunk, circus, pirates, more half-animals, Chtulu mythos, Greco-Roman or Nordic gods, or even stranger stuff. I know scuplts are hard to find, but clix and reaper make a few minis only useful for Myvra or something similar, and there are some items in clearance here and there.

[Dad_Scaper]

@Soundwarp SG-1 said something similar, and created (is creating) a new pantheon of generals for his own designs. Great! Like everything SW does, I think it's awesome. If you're building a universe from scratch, maybe that's what you want to do.

The C3V, though, works in the received universe. My feeling is it was more important to add new planets, which we did with Arctorus, which captures some of what you're talking about. The generals all have lots left to give, and lots that they've already given that people forget about. I find it difficult to imagine running out of design space within the generals. Has D&D run out of alignments?

Design space within the planets is the greater inhibitor, I believe, but I like to think that Arctorus gives us horror and steampunk and should last us a while.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

The C3V, though, works in the received universe. ... The generals all have lots left to give, and lots that they've already given that people forget about. I find it difficult to imagine running out of design space within the generals. Has D&D run out of alignments?

Very well said indeed.

I think I could sum up the reason for my own nay-vote as "because design discipline." This can be one of the hardest things for any designer or team to come to grips with, but it is really important. There is a great line in Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country where the Federation President says "Let us redefine progress to mean that just because we can do a thing, it does not necessarily mean we must do that thing." Or, taking a quotation from the actual past rather than the fictional future, the letter to the first-century Corinthian church offers the wisdom that "Everything is permissible, but not everything is helpful."

As others have said, Aquilla made a fair bit of sense and Valkrill less so. I won't go into my reasons here, but for me the former enriched Heroscape while the latter made it a thematically less enjoyable universe. I understand the reasons behind that decision, but Heroscape forever lost a particular bit of elegance by adding a seventh general "of practical necessity" that was visually challenged, badly underrepresented, and insufficiently distinct from Utgar.

Adding another general yet again, without a pretty dang good reason, would make the VC universe feel less canonical to me. It would segment itself into a new category that I would be inclined to ignore. And, once that decision was made, we can be sure that there would be pressure to produce as many units as possible for that faction as quickly as possible, slowing the pace of new units for "real" generals and greatly weakening the value of VC for those who don't want or need another general. This is where design discipline comes into focus; the lack of a strong necessity can easily take freedom in the wrong direction.

Nobody will see VC as "non-authentic" because it didn't create a new general; but plenty would find it less authentic if it did. So I encourage the team to design with discipline, and aim for inclusion rather than polarization.

Spend your freedom wisely.

[superfrog]

My very, very, unofficial, off-the-cuff response to this:

The C3V is set up to continue HeroScape. Very occasionally (i.e. twice), they added new generals. They created those generals FOR units that they were designing already. I'm guessing the designers didn't sit down and say "okay, Aquilla is going to be our new general. How can we define her?" I'm guessing it went more like "Hey, these units we're designing (Spiders/Sujoah/Dwarves) seem to fall outside of Ullar or any other general. Where can we put them? How about a new general? And let's introduce this new general with an exclusive!"

So. If the C3V designers were to get excited about a design or group of designs but feel that they warranted a new general, I'm sure it would be on the table. So far, it hasn't been on the table.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Semi-Ironically, I'm with Dad_Scaper here, new planets are far more useful/'needed' than new generals (which would be why I'm also making new planets with my custom generals). 'Steampunk' isn't a theme for a general, it's a theme for a planet. The planets place some actual limits on who you can bring into the game, but you can fit pretty much anything under at least one of the generals (which is actually why I'm doing my custom general project, I don't find the official generals too limiting, I find them too vague to really care about).

That said I could see having another evil general 'officially' at some point. Right now the only options are Utgar, Utgar 2... I mean Valkril, and Vydar apparently (for some reason). There are a lot more shades of evil than 2 Saturday morning cartoon villains and a jerk. Still not really something there's a dire need for though.