The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Scytale]

Johann Greybeard looks pretty solid with this iteration. I'm not thrilled about giving the 4th Mass some cheap useful filler, but it is what it is.

[Leaf_It]

I have been working with @Scaperedude to create this custom. We would appreciate any feedback you can give us.

NAME = WARDENS OF GILMUUND
GENERAL = VALKRILL
PLANET = TORIL
SPECIES = DEMONS
UNIQUENESS = COMMON SQUAD
CLASS = GARGOYLES
PERSONALITY = TERRIFYING
SIZE/HEIGHT = SMALL 2

1 LIFE
4 MOVE
1 RANGE
4 ATTACK
3 DEFENSE
50 POINTS

DEMONIC BLOOD BONDING
After revealing an Order Marker on this Army Card and taking a turn with the Wardens of Gilmuund, if you successfully wounded a figure, you may take one additional turn with the Wardens of Gilmuund, or you may take a turn with a Unique Demon Hero you control. If you take a turn with the Wardens of Gilmuund, you cannot activate any Wardens of Gilmuund that moved or attacked this turn.

EMBODIMENT OF STONE
When defending against a normal attack with a Warden of Gilmuund, all shields count for 1 additional defense. If a Warden of Gilmuund does not fly during its movement, you may add 1 to its move.

FLYING
When counting spaces for a Warden of Gilmuund's movement, ignore elevations. A Warden of Gilmuund may fly over water without stopping, pass over figures without becoming engaged, and fly over obstacles such as ruins. If a Warden of Gilmuund is engaged when it starts to fly, it will take any leaving engagement attacks.

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Part of the goal with them was that they would be viable without having a Demon hero in your army. We are kind of on the fence about the attack. With only 2 figures, we want to make sure they aren't too weak, but 4 attack might be too much. Their bonding is dependent on getting wounds, so without a significant attack, they loose a lot of their usefulness and viability. We would like to know what the community thinks about this.

I will now compare them to other 50 point common squads:

Official 50 point common squads:
• Goblin Cutters - Something that isn't uncommon among the 50 point squads, is to have 4 figures, and that is very clear advantage by comparison. Scurry really makes these guys mobile in a way our Gargoyles really can't compete with. The ability Mob Attack is a direct counter to our Stone ability, and with their mobility, they'll likely get to use it quite often. Their match up is not the best against our gargoyles due to their low defense, but their mobility, and sheer numbers make them even out in the end.
• Marro Dividers - Just 1 additional figure this time. The gargoyles may look stronger, but Cell Divide is what makes this match up even out. With an average of more attacks per turn, and the revival of lost figures, it's a fairly even match up.
• Marro Drones - With 3 figures, and stats similar to the Dividers, but with the potential for a ton of figures attacking each turn, the Gargoyles aren't out attacking these guys very often. With way more chances to get into a favorable position, and an additional move, a lucky D20 can allow these guys to easily over power the Gargoyles.
• Marro Drudge - These guys may have an additional figure, but their stats aren't quite as pretty as the previous 50 point Marro squads. However even with only 2 attack, the nature of range gives these guys a potential advantage against our 2 figure melee squad. If the map has a good amount of swamp water, they are even better, and it can help prevent the Gargoyles from getting their bonding very often.
• Roman Legionaries - Another 4 figure squad, this time with bonding, and much better stats than the Goblins. The ability to boost their defense up to 4 potentially, is a clear advantage, even if they don't have as much movement. They certainly earn their A ranking, and the Gargoyles feel like they fall short, especially with good positioning by the Romans preventing blood bonding from being able to activate unless you get lucky.
• Sacred Band - Again we have a 4 figure squad with bonding. They will almost certainly have the defense bonus every time they are used, but even with that, they really look like a weaker Roman Legionaries squad. However with Marcus, or Parmenio, they get the boost they need to feel like they can easily go toe to toe with the Gargoyles, especially with the number of attacks per order marker.
• Warriors of Ashra - Defensive agility nicely counters the Gargoyles and they would put up a very even fight. In the end I believe they are stronger with an additional figure securing their victory due to number of attacks per turn, because their ability will prevent Blood bonding from activating very often.

C3V 50 point common squads:
• Marro Gnids - Cling isn't an ability I'm familiar with, but even without that utility, 2 additional figures is nothing to shrug off your shoulder. The 7 move guarantees that they will engage in a favorable position by comparison to the Gargoyles.
• Zettian Death Wings - A 2 figure Squad is a very good thing to compare our squad to. In my eyes they outclass the Gargoyles though. a total of 7 move if you account for Hyper Speed Burst, and the option to run and gun will ensure that they always have a favorable engagement. To add to that, they have the option to blow up if you ever manage to corner them.

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Now We come to the biggest potential deal breaker, The figures. We want to use unpainted figures. The reason we believe this is acceptable, is because Gargoyles are made of stone, and thus if they are grey, they already look like stone. The figures we have chosen are a light grey color which I believe is passable, however what I think is irrelevant if the rest of the community doesn't agree. So here's some images so you can see for yourselves.

Here is a picture of the Gargoyles in their packaging. They are the top left package:


Here is an image if them on Heroscape Terrain, with other Heroscape figures. The lighting makes them appear very pale, which is why I am concerned that the community will not accept them.


I really like these figures, and so I am very hopeful that the community will be willing to accept them.

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So what do you think? Are the stats alright? Did we overlook anything? And most importantly, do we need to start looking for different figures?

[dok]

3 defense with shield of valor against normal attack, and becoming a virtual squad of 4 when doing wounds (not hard with an attack of 4!) sounds very strong. They have tremendous synergy with Raelin, too. The bonding with demons seems extraneous; most of the time I'd just want to take advantage of common squad redundancy and have more units.

4 attack seems like a theme fail on such a small figure.

My suggestions:

• Drop the attack to 3
• Drop the ability to take double turns; just make it bonding with a demon hero if you inflict a wound.
• Re-think the Embodiment of Stone power altogether. Theme is good but gameplay implications are problematic.
• Re-assess the price after those changes and some testing.
• Give them a super low-effort dark paint wash and show us what that looks like.

[Scytale]

In the versions you sent me privately, I somehow skimmed over the +1 shield part, which greatly increases their survivability, which also greatly enhances their board presence and attack ability, which in turn improves their bonding chances. It makes them far more viable than I was thinking. And, as dok notes, really good with defense boosts.

I was never a fan of 4 Attack on such small figures, but they only get two figures per activation and a key ability that requires dealing wounds. Three Attack just seems too inconsistent, though their staying power may help with that.

[dok]

I actually like the idea of them being annoyingly hard to kill on theme; they are supposed to be stone after all. I just don't like the gameplay implication (or the theme) of double shields. I used a conditional auto-shield in my version of the gargoyle.

[Sir Heroscape]

Another theme break for me is I don't understand why they get extra move if they don't fly. I think that ability is just a little too much in coordination with the shield defense. I imagine these guys as more stone gargoyle imps, so even though they are made of stone they're still somewhat nimble. I would put their movement at 5 and drop the conditional movement ability if your plan was to make them more maneuverable. But if you're sticking to the stone theme, then just leave the movement at 4.

[Scaperedude]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Another theme break for me is I don't understand why they get extra move if they don't fly. I think that ability is just a little too much in coordination with the shield defense. I imagine these guys as more stone gargoyle imps, so even though they are made of stone they're still somewhat nimble. I would put their movement at 5 and drop the conditional movement ability if your plan was to make them more maneuverable. But if you're sticking to the stone theme, then just leave the movement at 4.

To help you understand where it's coming from, they originally had a power called "Heavy Flight." This ability actually dropped their movement. The way the power is phrased simply condenses it in a better format. I made a proposal for changing these guys to imps at one point, but we decided to push for gargoyles theme. We want a heavy stone feel, and I think the slower flight makes their ability feel a bit more like gliding than quick maneuverability.

We wanted a trade-off of between flying (Where you could fly over ruins and water for example!) and walking. A slow, heavy glide/jump compared to a more powerful stride. We thought it would be an interesting concept to play with and would add an interesting aspect to standard movement.

[Leaf_It]

I don't know why it didn't occur to me that these guys would be insane with Raelin. I never even did basic tests with her. I would have gone about their defense differently had it occurred to me. I'm sorry.

The defense bonus part of Embodiment of Stone has gone through many variations. We have had it as an auto sheild, a straight + 1 or 2, the double shield that is currently is, I even considered a D20 related version that was similar to the Hide in Darkness ability the Drow have. We also really like the idea of them being very hard to kill normally. That's why the bonus only affects normal attacks. Special attacks are special, and being a statue won't help you against a magical explosion, or some other special attack.

We really wanted the fact that they are stone to be a big part of their theme. Imps just don't fit that, and I doubt we could pass unpainted imps. We did at one point consider some other painted figures that actually were Imps, but their cost per figure prevented us from going down that route.

The movement bonus of Embodiment of stone, is designed to emphasis that they weigh a ton. They are literally magical statues, which have enormous weight to them. Even though they can fly, they can't fly very well, because they are just demonic sculpted rocks. Thus, if you don't fly, you can move farther.

We want to stand by the notion that a common squad with bonding shouldn't necessarily be obligated to also have a hero to bond with. There are many bonding squads, but most of them are only worth fielding if you have a hero to bond them with. One example of a squad that is kind of an exception to this, is the Axegriders. I love that they have an option to their bonding that allows them to be useful, even if they can't bond with someone. We want to do something like that here. We can't let them be a sudo 4 figure squad it seems. We have our own ideas for what we could do instead, that we have come up with between ourselves, but what possibilities would the community suggest, keeping in mind the restriction that they need to be viable with, and without, a hero to bond with?

I will get the wash done tomorrow afternoon, and post pictures then.

(woot my 300th post)

[Sir Heroscape]

I understand slower movement because why're made of stone, it's just not selling it for me with how small they are. The Sentinels and Minions have 4 move because they are hulking warriors with heavy armor, but these gargoyles are so small, even though they're made of stone, I just personally think they're not as slow and cumborsome as a minion of Utgar. But that's just my oponion.

[Leaf_It]

Direct light make these guys appear very pale.

[Ixe]

Wardens of Gilmuund

I see from your notes that these guys have gone through quite a few iterations and it shows in their design. While that process can make them a fun and more balanced unit, it seems like it has made a mess with them as far as theme goes. First off, D&D gargoyles are not demons (neither are imps for that matter). They don't have any particular affiliation with demons and, if we draw from Earth-based lore, they were protectors of buildings against the wicked. Second, 4 attack is just a bit too much for their base attack given the size of these little guys. Third, Embodiment of Stone runs counter to their theme that they would fly in stone form and go slower in the process. Beyond that that movement part seems clunky and largely unnecessary. The defense part of it works for me at least.

Gargoyles are about the only thing you can argue them as since they are unpainted and that is a bit of a sell in this community. Especially without a wash they don't really look like stone.

I'd recommend lowering the attack, gutting the demon stuff, and reworking their extra turns power to better suit their lower attack and role. Off the cuff maybe something like how you can only activate more of them if none of your gargoyles moved that turn. Functionally they'll be slow to take position (only moving two at a time) but can keep in melee thanks to their high defense and keep up the attacks once engaged.

[Pumpkin_King]

I personally think it’s really clever to use unpainted demons as gargoyles, but maybe that’s just me.