The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

At the risk of turning the thread into a workshop

This thread is a workshop. Though it's expected that you have done testing with the unit and have experience and some confidence in the design before posting it here.

[Pumpkin_King]

I’ve played a couple games with the previous version (years ago, it wasn’t until recently that I realized that Jonah mini would work for it). That was before Cal and the Tombstones I think, so I’ll have to play again with them.

[Airballshooter]

Alduin!

the custom we play the most in our family group, because everybody loves dragons.
He comes with 2 new mechanics and both interesting i think. the first ability allows him to heal if not threatened and also in scenarios where your opponent has ghosts like a dead finn, thorgrim or a dead marro warrior to "eat" them to deny future value.

the second is the big ability where you can actually resurect dragons. but it comes with a price that i think is a fair model. you have 2 D20 so a maximum of 40 and you only need 18 to rez a unit. for a 30 point wyrmling you would actually need a 21, because 21-3=18. and for a 170 point moltenclaw you would need a 35-17=18. this was made to make it harder to get high value dragons back and not just with one 19 or 20. it also scales nicley with the points the dragon is worth. (obviously a dragon like nilfheim with 185 would need 37 not a 36)

miniature is from DnD attackwing

[Scytale]

What miniature does Alduin use?

Aldiun is somewhat strange for a dragon. No scary breath weapon or defensive power, just a 5/3 flier. The first power is interesting thematically but overly fiddly in actual gameplay. While the "remove a figure" mechanic has a little meaning in very early game, it has almost no effect on the remainder. It can counter resurrecting characters, but there are very few of those and most (Zombies and Dividers) come in large enough swarms that removing a couple of figures won't make a difference. As for the real value, the heal, it's certainly nice to have a semi-consistent heal, but that feeds into the other problem the unit has.

Which is the fact that not actually using the unit is better. It's like the Rejected by Death problem; you'd be better off hiding behind a screen and rolling as many times as you can to revive throw-away dragons. A resurrecting Nilfhim or Quahon would be devastating. I'd maybe use Greenscales as Alduin's screen for the bonus activations, or good 'ole Deathreavers. The free heal makes that strategy better as Alduin will be better able to survive while resurrecting, and helps alleviate the pain of taking leaving engagement attacks to run away.

[Airballshooter]

What miniature does Alduin use?

D&D Attack Wing Shadow Black Dragon Expansion Pack.

Aldiun is somewhat strange for a dragon. No scary breath weapon or defensive power, just a 5/3 flier. The first power is interesting thematically but overly fiddly in actual gameplay. While the "remove a figure" mechanic has a little meaning in very early game, it has almost no effect on the remainder. It can counter resurrecting characters, but there are very few of those and most (Zombies and Dividers) come in large enough swarms that removing a couple of figures won't make a difference. As for the real value, the heal, it's certainly nice to have a semi-consistent heal, but that feeds into the other problem the unit has.

I don't understand how an ability that just picks a unit from an army card and put it somewhere else is overly fiddly.
Of course the aspect of actually removing a unit that actually matters does not happen every game, but its a nice upside whenever you find a target. we just see it as heal with potential upside.

Which is the fact that not actually using the unit is better. It's like the Rejected by Death problem; you'd be better off hiding behind a screen and rolling as many times as you can to revive throw-away dragons. A resurrecting Nilfhim or Quahon would be devastating. I'd maybe use Greenscales as Alduin's screen for the bonus activations, or good 'ole Deathreavers. The free heal makes that strategy better as Alduin will be better able to survive while resurrecting, and helps alleviate the pain of taking leaving engagement attacks to run away.

I am not aware of the "rejected by death problem" could you please explain?
This dragon is for sure not a unit for every army. we tend to play on bigger maps and with armies that are worth more than 500-600 points regularly and if you get a decent amount of little wyrmlings, some greenscales and a big dragon he has been proven to be the most effective.
i believe a pure "dragon" build with him is not overly competitive, but for sure alot of fun, at least for us.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Airballshooter

D&D Attack Wing Shadow Black Dragon Expansion Pack.

I haven't looked around for availability, but eBay prices are fairly reasonable for a large figure.

Originally Posted by Airballshooter

I don't understand how an ability that just picks a unit from an army card and put it somewhere else is overly fiddly.

"Fiddly" is a relative term. In this context I mean that you're introducing a mechanic (remove from game) that currently does not exist in the game, and it requires bookkeeping (making sure to indicate a figure is removed from game). While that's not necessarily problematic, creating new mechanics is something that we do sparingly and with purpose. In this case, it serves little gameplay function.

Originally Posted by Airballshooter

I am not aware of the "rejected by death problem" could you please explain?

It's a problem that almost tanked Xundar and the Shadows, and has brought a downvote to the Shadow Stalker. It's a degenerate gameplay strategy where a unit's best use is contrary to its design and is instead just hiding in a corner. For Xundar & company, the concern was that Xundar's best use in the game was to hide him in a corner with some Shadows just to get enough rolls to bring Azazel back to life repeatedly.

Alduin is designed to do the same. His powers resurrect other dragons and help keep him alive (healing and mobility). Send out Nilfheim/Quahon/etc, kill stuff, they die, then take turns with Alduin until they come back. Repeat.

The design is cool and exciting and fun for a personal custom, but I don't think it's a good fit for VC. Even if he is balanced point-wise (which is likely not entirely possible, as a design like this goes up dramatically in value as army point values increase), it's a volatile concept (value is highly dependent on other dragon designs) and a style of gameplay VC is wary of.

[Airballshooter]

"Fiddly" is a relative term. In this context I mean that you're introducing a mechanic (remove from game) that currently does not exist in the game, and it requires bookkeeping (making sure to indicate a figure is removed from game). While that's not necessarily problematic, creating new mechanics is something that we do sparingly and with purpose. In this case, it serves little gameplay function.

I disagree with that. Sure you have to keep track of what unit was removed, but realisticly the ability wont be used that often, and putting like 3 or 4 units aside i would not consider problematic in terms of bookkeeping. I dont really understand what you mean with little gameplay function. You don't have the most targets for it, but i would consider the units that matter (vikings, elementals, marros... etc.) fairly common in casual games.
I still could see a different type of World Eater ability that is more offensive and is happening on the battlefield directly.

It's a problem that almost tanked Xundar and the Shadows, and has brought a downvote to the Shadow Stalker. It's a degenerate gameplay strategy where a unit's best use is contrary to its design and is instead just hiding in a corner. For Xundar & company, the concern was that Xundar's best use in the game was to hide him in a corner with some Shadows just to get enough rolls to bring Azazel back to life repeatedly.

So the problem is that you can have up to 3 activations per OM to roll for rejected by death. With Alduin you have a maximum of 2 (greenscale warriors, or 2 wyrmlings). That is pretty common and is also less flexible, because OM on Alduin cannot be used to potentially activate multiple other Dragons. Kurok and his Elementals can also activate up to 3 units per turn, is that considered problematic for Azazel?

The design is cool and exciting and fun for a personal custom, but I don't think it's a good fit for VC. Even if he is balanced point-wise (which is likely not entirely possible, as a design like this goes up dramatically in value as army point values increase), it's a volatile concept (value is highly dependent on other dragon designs) and a style of gameplay VC is wary of.

Thank you for your input. i can understand that a design like his is volatile and difficult to balance in regard of army and map size. I guess he will then be kept in our home and not explore other Heroscape tables

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Airballshooter

So the problem is that you can have up to 3 activations per OM to roll for rejected by death. With Alduin you have a maximum of 2 (greenscale warriors, or 2 wyrmlings). That is pretty common and is also less flexible, because OM on Alduin cannot be used to potentially activate multiple other Dragons. Kurok and his Elementals can also activate up to 3 units per turn, is that considered problematic for Azazel?

The problem isn't combining Azazel and Alduin, it's that Alduin gives all dragons a more limited Rejected by Death. I suspect that competitively Alduin's best play wouldn't be as an offensive unit, but purely as a respawner point. (And it the respawn chance was low enough this wasn't true, then Alduin would just be a weak but costly single-attack flier.)

Azazel is problematic for Kurrok, in that it's arguably a better use of an Elemental army than what they were designed to do. The Azazel strategy isn't blatantly better, though, and it depends heavily on army size, map, opponent's army, etc, and is often not better. After quite a bit of testing some of us came to the same conclusion about the Shadow army, which led to their eventual release. Though I downvoted the Shadow Stalker because it made the "hide in a corner" strategy significantly better.

[Leaf_It]

It's been a few years since I brought this design in here.

I present, Lady Aldorn:


Card text:

Spoiler Alert!

NAME = LADY FALLENIA R. ALDORN
GENERAL = VYDAR
PLANET = ARCTORUS
SPECIES = UNDEAD
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = BANSHEE
PERSONALITY = TERIFYING
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

4 LIFE
6 MOVE
1 RANGE
3 ATTACK
4 DEFENSE
90 POINTS

Scream of Terror:
Before moving, you may move up to 4 Undead Terrors that you control weithin 8 sight spaces. For each Undead Terror that you move, subtract 1 from the move value of this card.

Blade of Terror Special Attack:
Range 1. Attack 2+ special.
Roll 1 extra attack die for each undead Terror adjacent to the defending figure, up to a maximum of +4.

Levitation:
Lady Aldorn does not take falling damage and may ignore all effects from terrain tiles they move onto or occupy.

Phantom Walk:
Lady Aldorn can move through all figures and is never attacked when leaving an engagement.

I have since before the submission of the Specters intended to create at least 2 heros that synergize with them. My goal is to make heros that are not so good that you feel required to use them, but still useful enough that you would want to use them. Lady Aldorn is the can opener to the specters, allowing you to surround a big tough guy, and try to take a chunk out of him. She's not the tankiest hero, and she probably won't last too long if you try to bring her out right away, but 4 defense ain't bad.

I have found over 200 of the figure I'm planning to use, so availability is not a problem.

Also, with 4 powers, what are your thoughts on combining Phantom Walk, and Levitation?

Spectral Movement:
Lady Aldorn can move through all figures, is never attacked when leaving an engagement, does not take any falling damage, and may ignore all terrain effects from the terrain tiles she moves onto or occupies.

[Scytale]

I don't think the Specters need heroes, but Lady Aldorn is good for what you designed her to do. The Scream + Blade combo is fairly reliable, though her Lifense isn't great for the price.

I really don't have any suggestions. Four powers but they're all important to the design. Stats are all good, linking to the Specters and not being overdone. The only question is the figure, how it looks compared to the Specters.

[superfrog]

My comments are minor: I think the name is too long and I don’t love Banshee as a class.
Other than that I agree with Scytale.

[Dysole]

Echo frog that I much prefer Lady Aldorn to what you have there. Don't love Banshee but probably wouldn't downvote it on that alone. I guess I can see a need to take her but I have no idea if she'll be worth what else you could get. Difficult to say without playing.

~Dysole, musingly