Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread - Page 56

Typhon2222 · #**661** July 26th, 2023, 01:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrog

Mome Raths by @Typhon2222

As Typhon noted in his submission, Mome Raths has some similarities to existing maps with the same terrain combo (more on that in a moment), but it particularly stands out by splitting the shadow rather than focusing it in the middle. That and the classic Typhon 24-hex suspensions :P

Mome Raths improves on The Borogoves (imo) by bringing the level 4 heights inside the 3-hex outcrops, which makes them more contestable. But the 3-hex outcrops on Mome Raths pose a similar issue for me as some of the central blockers on The Borogoves: they (combined with the height differences) make it difficult for figures anywhere vaguely central on the board to reach the edges (in this case, to attack the glyph).

Speaking of the edges, I never found the edge paths useful in my games, which meant the 4 jungle bushes deployed to the map never boosted any defense rolls. I'm not sure that finding would hold up forever but those 4 jungle pieces seemed incidental to the map rather than a feature for armies to benefit from.

And then there's the other 4 jungle pieces, and how they interact with shadow. Obviously the jungle/shadow double buff has been done before, and I'm not one who thinks it's inherently problematic (heck, I just submitted a map with 14 such spaces, compared with 10 on this map), but I do take issue with the placements of them here.

8 of the 10 spots (the level 1s) are very yours/mine, making them a natural place to develop advancing figures. The problem there is that this 4-hex pool is too far from the action to reach some important spots (particularly the 3-hex level 3 perch). Really, both the best defensive spot (the level 1 4-hex shadow pool) and the best offensive spot (the level 3 3-hex dungeon perch) are far enough removed from the center that neither player really wants to continue development in a range/melee matchup.

I did find melee-melee matchups to be more enjoyable, and the 2-hex level 3 dungeon perch in the center makes fighting there very dynamic.

In general, Mome Raths is a well-designed map, but the isolated edges and overall distribution of development real estate mean that gameplay lacks enough momentum to be among the upper echelon of tournament maps. I vote

to induct.

A fantastic review, @superfrog : detailed, insightful, helpful. Thanks for putting so much time into testing and thinking about the map!

caps · #**662** July 26th, 2023, 12:24 PM

A note to readers: Nomanisan is a phenomenal Heat of Battle map (in my less-qualified opinion).

dok · #**663** July 26th, 2023, 12:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

A note to readers: Nomanisan is a phenomenal Heat of Battle map (in my less-qualified opinion).

I agree! Lava maps are great for HoB in general, of course.

superfrog · #**664** July 26th, 2023, 02:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

A note to readers: Nomanisan is a phenomenal Heat of Battle map (in my less-qualified opinion).

I can see that for sure!

caps · #**665** August 7th, 2023, 02:08 AM

I remixed Dignan's Cage Match in an attempt to address the concerns of the WoS judges when it was first nominated years ago:

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

Quote:

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Would you mind if I remix Cage Match at some point?

This is my attempt to address the objections of the WoS judges (below) to Cage Match

Spoiler Alert!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Cage Match by Dignan

Overall design : This, ladies and gentlemen, is what I love in maps, an original gameplay design backed by a strong aestetic (fortress invaded by swamp and Marro, love it). Almost all the parts of the map have major qualities, but also major downsides, which leads to a good amount of different strategies.

Balance & Playability
In some games, the maps turns out well, and is played the way it was made to be played. These games were a complete blast to play, action all over the map, never ending battle for the glyphs, 180° strategy turns because some glyph is taken by your opponent, some risky plays who turn out very good because it surprised etc…
But in some other games none of that happened because the glyphs were irrevelant and there were no reason for each player to leave the level 3 platform.
The first problem is that this level 3 platform is too easy to hold because if your opponent place his figures correctly, the only ways to attack him are :
1- The swamp of death
2- Two poor little hexs road where the opponent has height advantage on you
That is the main problem of the map, it’s too easy to block the level 3 platform access from your opponent. So melee is screwed because even with both thorian and Astrid, the army which stay on the platform will have the edge. It even leads to melee vs melee games where no one wants to attack (yeah go grab this Astrid and enjoy your +1 attack while I have +1 attak and +1 defense due to height), something which happen very rarely in Heroscape usually.
Note that this problem happen only when one army has little to no range, if both armies have a decent amount of ranged figures, then taking the 4 level hills on the sides is interesting, and it leads to cool games.
But there is another big problem on this map : Thorian doesn’t apply to special attacks. So the screen + special attackers armies will have the advantage in pretty much any machup, and all they do is to stay on the platform.
Melee have close to no chance, 100% guaranteed height disavantage and Astrid quite impossible to grab.
Against range as long as some screen figures, usually very good at grabbing glyphs, touch Thorian, then it’s very hard for the range, because all the choices are bad. Either you let them the glyph and you fight like you were a melee army (see upward, but in worse) or you try to contest the glyphs, throw your figures in the swamp of death, against excellent glyphs grabbers, waste all your attacks on the screen figures, and even if you claim Thorian back the special attacker can just destroy all your stuff down there.
If special attackers where all in the bottom of the rankings that would be good, but that’s far to be the case as the meta is dominated by special attackers with the tons of defensive powers we had since D&D.

Conclusion :
Cage match has a very interesting design and can offer the best game of your life. But it leads too often to boring or not interesting games and don’t have a good balance.
A machup which is usually « hard but I will destroy this f***ing [insert OP figure name here], great challenge

» can become « I don’t want to play this » on Cage Match which is not good at all.
I vote NO to induct Cage Match in the WoS, but I’d love to see it reviewed, with an easier access to the platform for melee and a custom Thorian which also works on special attacks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dok

Cage Match by Dignan

When I first considered this map for judging, I was extremely skeptical. The Thorian glyph jumped out to me in particular. In the end, though, I was pleasantly surprised. I agree with most of what caps said in his nomination post. The map has a pretty interesting and often fun dynamic.

Thorian was clearly carefully chosen for this map. Without it, ranged squads would be extremely dominant due to the easily defended high ground each side gets. With it, there’s an interesting dynamic in games between range (or ranged normals, anyway) and melee, or range and range. Obviously Thorian is ignored in all-melee contests, but Astrid keeps the middle in play. When games on this map work well, they work very well - I’ve had a couple really good games on this one.

The biggest issue with the map is the two single-spaced dips in the road to level 2 - and, to a lesser extent, the two double-spaced dips on the other side. What these dips do is create a very clear “yours and mine” quality to the sections of level 3 road in the ring. Because of the many blockers and obstacles on the map, it can be extremely difficult to outflank an army that hunkers down on its high area. (The single-spaced swamp water dip on the sides next to the glyph exacerbates this issue by making outflanking still more difficult.) This problem is much worse for double-spaced figures, who can’t even use the road to engage an opponent on that key map position. Instead double spacers have to drop down to an extremely vulnerable level 0 spot, and will often be hit from height on 3 sides the next turn.

I had one particularly distressing game on this map where both me and my opponent played melee armies and we basically had a starting contest across the single-spaced gap until I made a run for it, attacking up around an initiative switch. Most games were not that bad, but overall I saw a pattern where, despite the desirable glyphs and the road ring that would seem to suggest ease of movement, the map would often clog up with one side attacking up at the choke point in the road.

And while I think Thorian makes a lot of sense on this map in many games, the difference between having a ranged special attack and not having one can be as critical on Cage Match as it is when playing against Deathreavers or Mezzodemons. Armies with a Major or Dragon or Kaemon can be at an enormous advantage on this map. That’s not really an indictment of the map, per se, as much as it’s an indictment of the Thorian glyph; it’s a very matchup-dependent glyph in addition to being very powerful, which is a tough combo to work with.

In the end, when I think about judging a map like this, I think about its place in a tournament map pool. My biggest concern is how much this map alters matchups. At a few tournaments I’ve been to, including a few Gencons, there has been one map in the pool that had kind of a notorious reputation among the players for throwing games one way or the other. Having some maps be more melee friendly or range friendly, or unique friendly versus common friendly, is perfectly fine, but in the end this map just seems a bit too extreme in the way it alters things.

It’s possible that I’d be willing to approve this map if it were either just the Thorian swing or just the dips in the road that I was worried about. But collectively, it’s too many red flags for me. It’s a map that I’ll certainly keep in my back pocket for playing games where I’m not worried about those particular issues, but it’s not a map I can give a wholehearted thumbs-up for general tournament use. No to induct.

TL;DR:

"this level 3 platform is too easy to hold... it’s too easy to block the level 3 platform access from your opponent"
"Thorian doesn’t apply to special attacks. So the screen + special attackers armies will have the advantage in pretty much any machup, and all they do is to stay on the platform."
"The biggest issue with the map is the two single-spaced dips in the road to level 2 - and, to a lesser extent, the two double-spaced dips on the other side."
"... the Thorian glyph [is] a very matchup-dependent glyph in addition to being very powerful"

--

To address these issues I raised the road so that is level 3 all the way around the entire map. I also removed Thorian and Astrid as hard-coded glyphs for the map, suggesting they be replaced with other strong glyphs instead. I also removed the swamp water dip along the outside edge of the map, making it easier to go around the sides.

As part of making the road level 3 all the way around, I also removed the level 4 road on the outer edges and replaced it with a single hex on level 4 in the middle of a 7-hex shape of road and sand.

To implement the various level-raising changes I did have to bring in a couple of extra 2-hex snow tiles. These are placeholders--I imagine most collections have some extras, since I know there were some waves that included extra tiles in booster packs. If no extra tiles are available, I believe that some leftover wall bases (of which this map leaves several) would also do the trick.

Finally, I removed a few battlements and added multiple ladders to make the map easier to traverse for melee armies.

We've already used it at several Colorado events and I've been pleased with how it has played.

Quote:

Originally Posted by caps

uploaded originally by Dignan 2012-05-13
edit by caps uploaded 2023-02-25

Cage Match Redux

Requires: 1 SotM, 1 FotA

Glyph configuration: strong glyphs must be placed in the center (Ulaniva, Wannok, Valda, Thorian, or even C3V's Lorja Ivor or Yngvild), with useful glyphs on the outsides (Valda, Dagmar, Wannok, Lodin, or C3V's Holdir).

note: the glyphs of Brandar are treasure glyphs.

Link to .pdf
Link to .hsc

------------------------------------

This revision has seen play at multiple Colorado tournaments, specifically

our gameday last August
our NHSD event last Fall
and our Winter event at the beginning of this year

And the original version was used at multiple tournaments as well.

superfrog · #**666** August 7th, 2023, 02:07 PM

Thanks for the nomination!

superfrog · #**667** August 14th, 2023, 01:19 PM

I'd like to nominate Origin for an update, using the version seen at ScapeCon III.

It's a very simple tweak to the original, adding a 2-hex sand bridge on each side near the glyph.

I have played this several times and in my opinion it's a straight improvement on the original. It was used at a recent Utah event, a recent SoCal event that sadly only had 4 players, and ScapeCon III.

I also vote

to induct the update.

caps · #**668** August 14th, 2023, 01:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrog

I'd like to nominate Origin for an update, using the version seen at ScapeCon III.

It's a very simple tweak to the original, adding a 2-hex sand bridge on each side near the glyph.

I have played this several times and in my opinion it's a straight improvement on the original. It was used at a recent Utah event, a recent SoCal event that sadly only had 4 players, and ScapeCon III.

I also vote

to induct the update.

As someone who played on this version several times at SC3, I have to say I think this version is an improvement. I think it makes it easier to approach the 1-hex level 3 mini-hill from the opposite level 2 plateau without having to take as many downhill attacks from figures on the opposing level 2.

OEAO · #**669** August 15th, 2023, 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by superfrog

I'd like to nominate Origin for an update, using the version seen at ScapeCon III.

It's a very simple tweak to the original, adding a 2-hex sand bridge on each side near the glyph.

I have played this several times and in my opinion it's a straight improvement on the original. It was used at a recent Utah event, a recent SoCal event that sadly only had 4 players, and ScapeCon III.

I also vote

to induct the update.

Agreed. Yes to induct.

Dysole · #**670** August 16th, 2023, 02:04 AM

April 9th

Nomination for this map. It was a lot of fun to play on at Scapecon and I enjoyed all 8 of my games on it (even the ones I lost). The board feels dynamic despite having what looks like a two hill situation and a strong central glyph makes for very interesting choices throughout. The jungle, glaciers, and ruins are excellently placed to give both range and melee some interesting choices.

~Dysole, jumping on this

MegaSilver · #**671** August 16th, 2023, 04:28 PM

I'm going to go ahead and nominate Nightfall.

Nightfall

Events:

Louisville, KY Monthly Tournament (10/22/2022)
Mid-Atlantic Regional Scapers (4/22/23)
MARS Salisbury Maryland - VCheese (6/25/23)
Peoria Monthly June 2023 (6/24/23)
Missouri Seasonal Tourneys (7/22/23)
MARS D.C. July 2023 - RtW (7/22/23)
Peoria Monthlies 23 — SC prep RtW (7/29/23)
Utah Monthly July 2023 (7/29/23)
Scapecon 3

From ScapeCon III feedback thread, Nightfall seemed to be the overall favorite map, or at least near the top. And it's a great use of the Marvel set overall.

BiggaBullfrog · #**672** August 16th, 2023, 09:57 PM

Shaolin Monastery by @Sheep

Shaolin Monastery is a very visually striking map. The terrain zones are near perfect (if only those rock hexes could be asphalt), and it has a fun layered climbing element to it that evokes a battle in a mountaintop monastery.

One of the most important strategic features of the map are the level four two-hexes outside the start zone. They offer great control over their part of the battlefield, can be shielded by a Raelin in the start zone, and are only beaten in height by two single-hex level pieces. There is plenty of level four in the middle of the map to match height for approaching figures, but that does result in a lot of climbing. Also, in the case of the left-side perch, you can fire down on the glyph, giving you great control. Move Raelin up out of the start zone a bit and you can cover the perch plus some central area, or even both perches, depending on which figures you're fielding and how much real estate you think you can handle.

I really went back and forth on these spots a lot. They are very strong, and the fact that Raelin can cover them from the start zone means that ranged armies get a strong setup, especially ones that rely on one main figure like Q9 or Nilfheim. I found myself wanting a counter built into the map to make it more dynamic.

I'd love to see some tinkering with the map and think it has some solid bones, but as it is I think it falls short of the best of the best. I vote NO to induct.

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