The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Pumpkin_King]

Wouldn’t be that hard to make the elemental squad in question immune to being activated by other figures, or make them Elementar and avoid it altogether.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Yeah, but that doesn't mean we should repeat our mistake.

Or maybe it means you should take advantage of an established precedent rather than arbitrarily restrict future design space.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Or maybe it means you should take advantage of an established precedent rather than arbitrarily restrict future design space.

Agreed. Though Kurrok still makes Elemental squads something that can never happen, as long as the wording is specific, like Omegacron's is,(maybe even more specific?) I would like to see this allowed as a possible avenue of design in the future.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Or maybe it means you should take advantage of an established precedent rather than arbitrarily restrict future design space.

It's not design space, it's a break. There are no game rules to define what is supposed to happen. It's Calvinball.

I ruffle feathers every time this comes up, as I'm not afraid to speak my mind on this topic, despite being a C3V member. In the early days of the C3V there was a lot of enthusiasm but no experience, and they did not have anywhere near the quality assurance processes we have now. Omegacron, along with some other things in the first C3V release, was my impetus for getting involved in SoV/C3V. I decided I was either going to reject Fanscape due to things I found problematic or I was going to step up and involve myself to prevent such issues in the future.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by Scytale

It's not design space, it's a break. There are no game rules to define what is supposed to happen. It's Calvinball.

I ruffle feathers every time this comes up, as I'm not afraid to speak my mind on this topic, despite being a C3V member. In the early days of the C3V there was a lot of enthusiasm but no experience, and they did not have anywhere near the quality assurance processes we have now. Omegacron, along with some other things in the first C3V release, was my impetus for getting involved in SoV/C3V. I decided I was either going to reject Fanscape due to things I found problematic or I was going to step up and involve myself to prevent such issues in the future.

But.... Omegacron is 'official' now.... and he hasn't been changed... and he's never been an issue. As long as it's clear in the power what's supposed to happen, there is no issue.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

But.... Omegacron is 'official' now.... and he hasn't been changed... and he's never been an issue. As long as it's clear in the power what's supposed to happen, there is no issue.

Heh. As a player, a tournament director, and a VC Editor I can tell you with certainty that rules issues do matter. It can't just be sort of clear, it has to be clear in every potential case, in an official-ish manner.

The relatively loose ruleset of Heroscape gives us Editors no end of headaches behind the scenes. The whole power of unit powers is to break the normal rules, and continuing to make more means finding new ways to break them. Time and time again we've had to try to solidify poorly-defined areas of the rules or try to avoid them entirely for the sake of clarity and simplicity.

Which is why we need to have some stakes in the ground. There has to be a core ruleset that is agreed upon and upon which we can hang powers. If that isn't there, understanding decays and interpretation becomes impossible, leaving a competitive game up to arbitrary decisions. As the victim of some arbitrary decisions in tournaments, I can tell you how not-fun that can be.

If I had the power to change Omegacron, I would. It should have been done like the Marro Hive. But I've lost that battle. And Omegacron has caused plenty of issues: take a look at the long list of R&Cs in his Book, most of which are trying to make sense of Directed Fire. Also, it's existence is a burden on the development of future Omnicron squads. And that's just for a single unit in a very limited space. Opening this power up to broader use would quickly become a nightmare, both for rules issues and future development.

A bit of trivia: Directed Fire originally wasn't a full turn. Originally the power allowed other Omnicron figures to attack. But attacking outside of a turn is another big problematic point in the rules, as was discovered in testing. To deal with those problems, those attacks were packaged into a turn, which itself is problematic, but not as easily noticeable. While C3V has worked with Attack Bonding since, we've been much smarter about it and have found ways to work within the rules.

[Sir Heroscape]

After playtesting...I need some "professional" opinions here on point value



I'm really struggling to see where Rujin lies on points. During playtests he's NEVER met (let alone once in a while exceeded) his point value. He's wonderfully thematic (mentioned in the Compendium under Durgeth Swamps), and a great, fun option for the ravagers...BUT he's proved to average around half his points. The highest he ever produced was 75points and the lowest has been 20points. I think a big part of his struggles are that his bonding is so dependant upon the ravagers ability to kill something each turn. Usually he gets in 4-5 attacks a game, but not much more because within even just 1 or 2 turns he gets roasted in no time (I will say though, that he's been a great distraction for an opponent. There have been numerous times where he's soaked a lot of attacks in a couple turns, which means my ravagers were able to get in attacks while they dealt with the troll). I almost want to drop him to 70 or 75pts just because that's the highest he's ever accomplished so far and all but one of his playtests have been while he's IN HIS ELEMENT(heavy swamp maps). To me he feels like he should be closer to 100pts, but I really can't justify putting him that high when I know he's failed many times to achieve half of that value. It should also be noted that while thematic and unique, his Lurking Assault if very difficult to pull off and rarely activates due to the likely fact that swamp water is usually on lower ground and considering he's already at defensively inferior stat allocation, he needs to stay high or on same level as much as possible. With that said, I think the power is still worth having on his card on the chance that it will activate once in a while when the opportunity presents itself. I think the difficult and largely dependent nature of that ability on the map also helps my case in lowering his point value significantly.

I also have to consider that current bonding options are 60pts for Zombie Hulk, 95pts for Pel, 110pts for Uzog (assuming of course he gets passed). That leaves me with a few options for point ranges 60 - 95, 95 - 110, 110+. I think the 70 - 75pt range is more appropriate for what he's been able to accomplish...and while I could fit him in that tight 95 - 110 window, I'd rather give a little bit more variance to the spectrum of bonding options for the ravagers. I've considered a higher point Troll in the 120+pt range, but not sure how to thematically make him that strong other than raising his defense (which I'm not as inclined to do because of his regeneration...though 2 def might be acceptable for his current version?).

Am I missing something here? Does 70 - 75pts feel right? I'm very much inclined to think so based off of his performance, but I thought I'd report back for some final thoughts.

[Scytale]

Just comparing how many points worth of kills the figure gets is definitely not the right way to determine price. Not even for a bruiser. This is especiallytrue for Ravager-bonders.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

(I will say though, that he's been a great distraction for an opponent. There have been numerous times where he's soaked a lot of attacks in a couple turns, which means my ravagers were able to get in attacks while they dealt with the troll).

This. Right here. What the Ravagers need more than anything is a unit to lock down and distract the enemy. Ravagers are squishy and they rely heavily on their offense; anything that keeps the attacks off of them is really beneficial. That's why Pel is actually kind of crappy for them; he does very little to keep a smart opponent busy.

Getting kills is all well and good for this guy, but recognize his primary role for a Ravager army: that of a Defender. Plunk down in Swamp and soak up damage while locking down enemy figures, allowing the Ravagers to do their thing.

Rujin's heavy reliance on swamp is unfortunate for pricing, as you need to focus your pricing on swamp maps. That will make him much weaker outside of that, but that's just how terrain-based powers work.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Ravagers are squishy and they rely heavily on their offense; anything that keeps the attacks off of them is really beneficial. That's why Pel is actually kind of crappy for them; he does very little to keep a smart opponent busy.

Hey @kevindola - how did that work out for you last night?

[Kinseth]

Trolls are just not going to be A+ figures, they are not designed that way. They are fun figures to use that often will not reach their points. But every so often play a strong role in an outcome of a game.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Just comparing how many points worth of kills the figure gets is definitely not the right way to determine price. Not even for a bruiser. This is especiallytrue for Ravager-bonders.

This. Right here. What the Ravagers need more than anything is a unit to lock down and distract the enemy. Ravagers are squishy and they rely heavily on their offense; anything that keeps the attacks off of them is really beneficial. That's why Pel is actually kind of crappy for them; he does very little to keep a smart opponent busy.

Getting kills is all well and good for this guy, but recognize his primary role for a Ravager army: that of a Defender. Plunk down in Swamp and soak up damage while locking down enemy figures, allowing the Ravagers to do their thing.

Rujin's heavy reliance on swamp is unfortunate for pricing, as you need to focus your pricing on swamp maps. That will make him much weaker outside of that, but that's just how terrain-based powers work.

I appreciate this feedback. I was feeling that his value was more based on this role of defender, but was concerned his output offensively was just too small to make his point value balanced. Your thoughts give me confidence in the design as it stands so thank you.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Trolls are just not going to be A+ figures, they are not designed that way. They are fun figures to use that often will not reach their points. But every so often play a strong role in an outcome of a game.

Thank you for the reminder, it’s important for me to remember that.