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C3V and SoV Customs A place for C3V and SoV customs |
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#5881
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
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My original draft for this design actually had a normal attack of 3, but feedback prompted me to bump it up to 4 so that it became more of a decision to use his normal or special attack, since each had benefits beyond the change in range. I'm a little surprised that you say the design would be more interesting/fun without that change, since M.A.R.S. would be encouraged to use his SA every chance that he gets. The attack of 5 at range 1 is an interesting prospect. One of the main reasons that I chose 8 range (beyond the machine guns, of course) was how slow he is, so that even though the SA takes some time to set-up, the player doesn't feel like they're wasting a turn to do so. I wouldn't want to bump up his life, though (at least not without decreasing his defense) to avoid making him too durable with that SA. Even though this isn't a workshop, I do appreciate your thoughts. They give me some insight into parts of the design that may be a source of contention for people. Quote:
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It's perfectly fine if you don't like the unit, but that doesn't mean that everyone who does is wrong or somehow gullible. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#5882
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
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#5883
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
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Part of the SOV process is putting yourself out there, and you will take criticism. Regardless, I didn't want to go down refuting everyone of his counterpoints, so a simple response accomplished that. Add to that, using words like "Measly" when describing the very potent MARS special attack, he kind of brings that upon himself Have you tried Hexscape? 3D Heroscape Multiplayer Battle program! Looking for a C3V/SOV miniature? Try one of these sites. |
#5884
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
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I sent this in a message just now to Kinseth, but I feel it would be appropriate to share it here as well. I recently played a couple games against a Deathwing army, as a test a potential army I was thinking of bringing to a local tournament. Their Detonation special was used at a very opportune initiative switch to devastating effect, because of some above average rolls. They were only hitting 3 figures at a time because I positioned for it, but 6 figures hit between 2 of them with rolls of 3 and 4 skulls, wrecked my 3 defense Protectors of Ullar. That was 50 points taking out 220 points of protectors. The Deathwings special attack of 5 can be nasty in the right situation. My Custom Designs.
--------------- Check out my maps. --------------- Get general Valkrill's symbol in SVG vector format. |
#5885
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Two Cents
I'd rather have 5 deathwings than one MARSbot.
~Dysole, who will note that she's a bit biased since deathwings are one of her favorite units My Twitch Channel where I play Scape and other things My YouTube Channel where the games get uploaded later Dysole's Draft Rankings Map Thread (Not responsible for psychic damage) Customs Battle Reports This sentence is seven words long. This sentence is not seven words long. |
#5886
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
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Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |
#5887
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
I feel like the biggest concern that I'm seeing is that M.A.R.S. is a good counter to armies that need to pod up. I feel like the most powerful matchup for M.A.R.S. is going to be an Arrow Grut Army. Until He goes down, those kinds of armies are going to need to drastically change how they're played. But this isn't new to Heroscape. Even Classic Scape had even harder counters than this. Look at the Omnicron Repulsors. They counter every soulborg based army so hard it's ridiculous. They aren't bad against non-soulborgs either. In the Tournament I mentioned previously, the army I ended up taking was an Omegacron/Omnicron army. My opponent rushed up ninjas of the Northernwind, and took out Omegacron by the end of the first round. I had lost 3 of the 6 snipers I brought as well, and so from there on, I used only the 4 squads of Repulsors I had with them to take the win, just because of good positioning, and their Targeting Beacon.
My Custom Designs.
--------------- Check out my maps. --------------- Get general Valkrill's symbol in SVG vector format. |
#5888
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
I'm going to have to disagree with
@Lazy Orang
about the square peg/round hole. I think the main concern here is over power level. There's some theme execution questions here as well, but I think most people are simply concerned that MARS is overpowered.
I will admit that the SoV has a certain "type" of unit that passes more easily than others. MARS seems like it's part of that "type" to me. (And I fully admit that there are good customs that wouldn't pass the SoV that shouldn't be changed to fit SoV ideals. Not all good customs are VC customs, and that's okay.) |
#5889
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
My concern is partly power level and partly that he just doesn't look that fun to play, though there are aspects of this design (mostly the Special Attack) that I like very much. The choices for ranged attack look pretty simplistic: when you want an explosion, use the exploding one. Otherwise, the big punch of the normal attack is always a good option. The potential of hitting your own allies is not so serious, when you always have the option of shelling your enemy with 4 (or 5, from height) attack dice against a single target.
I'd like this design much more if it was harder to get away from the possibility of hitting your own guys. Lower the normal attack to 2, as I said, or make it melee. That's why I was thinking of those options. As is, I confess I do not care for MARS. He's close to really good, but he could use another round of refining. My , for what they're worth. |
#5890
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
I'll admit that this isn't usually my neck of the woods, but based on the controversy over this unit, I figure I'll throw my thoughts in the mix.
1. 5 Defense, 3 life is pretty squishy. Anyone who has run Hounds knows how often they can whiff, and with a 3 life figure, one whiff could equal 2 or 3 of his life gone. 2. 4 move is HORRIBLE for a ranged unit. This all but removes the ability for him to kite, even with an 8-range normal. 3. In no way should he be compared to the level of DW9K in Official Scape only. I don't think it's wrong to design units that are actually competitively relevant. 4. DW9K's play in VC-inclusive Scape does not see a drop, specifically because he will only see play alongside ZI anyways. 5. His special is pretty good, but not as good as the 2x4 at 4 that KA and Q10 have. One attack roll that has to explode two figures will really only affect bad players who clump their figures. Heavies will just laugh and forego their adjacency bonuses which they really don't need. 6. His secondary ability is niche and it doesn't really impact his level one way or another. So where does this leave him? He's a mid-high B+ figure, at very best possibly a low-mid A-. Useful, but certainly not the best way to fill in your army. If you're running Raelin to get him to 7 defense, you're probably better of just choosing a different figure than him anyways. KA and Q10 are both better on their own as they have the critical 4th Life alongside better specials. At the end of the day, he's only really good against Arrow Gruts, and that assumes that their army is just AGs and Swogs. If it is, they're already in a world of trouble against literally every competitive army. My two cents. EDIT: Final thoughts: M.A.R.S. is a good figure, but I struggle to find what army really breaks him. Not being able to kite really hurts (it's a huge reason why Krav and MWs are so powerful) and 125 points for a figure who relies on defense dice to survive (which are very unreliable) is definitely a scary prospect. Add in making only one 3 or 4-die attack roll (also unreliable) that has its damage potential mitigated through smart positional tactics and this figure will seem like a moderately risky OM and points investment. I think he's a strong figure, but good range armies and melee armies both have the tools to deal with him. Once in a while, you may have a game where he dominates. Once in a while, he'll do next to nothing as you lose an OM off a few cheap hits you weren't expecting after he whiffs his 3-die special. I'd imagine that more often than not, he earns around his points (I don't see him having the solo potential that a Kaemon has), but not much more. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
Last edited by OEAO; October 1st, 2018 at 05:23 PM. |
#5891
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
Thanks, OEAO. I'd definitely put your competitive sense in the upper echelons of this site. Feel free to stop by anytime.
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#5892
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Re: Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion
I was actually just about to retract my submission of M.A.R.S. and make some minor tweaks to appease concerns, when I refreshed the page and saw even more comments.
OEAO's analysis lines up very well with what I have experienced so far. I'd put him at B+, and worst-case scenario is that he is a weaker A-. Kaemon Awa and Q10 are both stronger options due to having more defensive potential (whether Countstrike or an extra life), more move to gain better board control, and a more consistently useful Special Attack. M.A.R.S. does have the potential to affect more figures, but he is rarely able to target more than 3 or 4. Even then, you are getting one attack of 3 against all of these figures, whereas Kaemon/Q10 get two attacks of 4, which will produce a much more consistent and reliable result. He also cannot target the same figure more than once per turn, unlike his two closest comparisons, giving him much less utility. If the judges still feel that M.A.R.S. is too powerful for his points, then I will take him back and make some nerfs so that he is no longer performs as a B+ figure, but I stand by my assertion that he is surprisingly balanced already. Proud Member of Platyfly!
Custom Units — Maps & Scenarios Battle Reports The Case for a VC Master Set |