The Pre-SoV Workshop

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by wriggz

O'Hare reminds me of an old nominee jack of blades. That custome had Sooooo much going on during an attacking turn that I voted not to review. I see the same thing here, double attack with point blank and a chance to miss.

I'd simplify greatly. Not sure point blank is warranted, or even double attack given how hard flint lock pistols are to load and use.

The failure on attack is neat but punishing in game, likely resulting in players avoiding the drafting outside buccaneers builds.

Finally bonding. I'm not a fan of sticking bonding on every unit especially on a hero to forever chain her to a squad.

I hear all your points. Given their weak melee defense, I'm thinking a defensive boost, rather than Bonding, might be appropriate. As to Double Attack, there are two pistols on the sculpt. I thought to do something with the over/under barrels, originally a form of quadruple attack, but settled on Double Attack/Point Blank with the LeMat pistol in mind. It had a shotgun barrel as well as a normal one. Now, I guess I'll go with rolling block pistols and 7 Range. Back to the drawing board . . .

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Deleted.

[quozl]

Attention:

Originally Posted by Scytale

The purpose of this thread is for late-stage refinement of customs being prepared for SoV submission.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Deleted precious post.

P.S.: Not posting again in The Pre-SoV Workshop until somebody says I should.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

Deleted precious post.

P.S.: Not posting again in The Pre-SoV Workshop until somebody says I should.

I think what you are running up against is your willingness to bend to a judges suggestion. You took all of my suggestions to heart and went back to the drawing board. With this method you are either hoping to catch lightning in a bottle with your attempt or engaging in an iterative process.

What I'm trying to say is you are frosting the cake before it's baked. I would expect a design presented here to only need minor tweeks like a single base stat, a wording change or insight to better execute a design vision. For example I would not expect anyone to remove bonding, since it is a huge part of a figures design from gameplay to theme to balance. Instead you should be so invested in bonding that you are ready to defend why it's there while being open for suggestions on how it might be better implemented.

Also suggesting that you want to cover up for weak melee defense screams babying a custom. Only a handful of units are army in a box and you pay for that.

[Scytale]

I was originally going to write this in a PM as a response to soliciting feedback, but since O'Hara was posted here I'll give the feedback here so others can benefit from it. I agree this custom is not ready for the Pre-SoV thread.

I'm not a fan of this design. There's nothing inherently wrong with having four powers on a card, but when doing so each power must be an important part of the design. Really, that's not just a statement for a four-power card but a statement in general for customs. O'Hara feels unfocused. The four powers are individually interesting, but they don't form a cohesive whole, rather just a grab bag of abilities.

Double Attack and Queen of the Buccaneers are overlapping in value add: they both provide more bang for an order marker. But I see no compelling reason that the design needs both. Either would do the job; having both is just overkill.

What is the point of Point Blank exactly? It seems to incentivize getting up in the fray, but the Life/Defense don't really support that. Is it there to punish melee units that are able to close the gap? Why punish units for playing the way they are meant to be played?

Flintlock Pistols is thematic and unique, but not worth having a fourth power for. Is the goal to have a downside to allow for the unit to be otherwise underpriced, so drafting and using become a bit of a gamble? If that's it, I suggest finding a less irritating and more gameplay-interesting way to do so. If it's just flavor, then it's really just a double annoyance. It's annoying for the user to have their attacks randomly fail even more often than usual, and it's annoying for everyone to have an extra die roll along with every O'Hara attack. If it was something like a chance of failure at range but not melee, it would play into Point Blank and make the character more melee-centric, or if the roll was only for the second attack of Double Attack and the misfire would cause injury to O'Hara, then it's a gamble that has actual gameplay effects. As-is it adds more frustration than it provides in theme.

Outside of powers, the name "O'Hara" feels distinctly human to me and doesn't feel like a good fit for a Half-Elf. (Is O'Hara supposed to be the Valhallan child of a Feylund Elf and an Earth Human or something?) Outlaw and Disciplined are an odd combo that require explanation, which isn't good for a design in general--you shouldn't have to look at side materials to understand what's on the card. (I'm not a fan of Merciful Q10 or lizard-arm Valguard for that reason.)

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by Scytale

I was originally going to write this in a PM as a response to soliciting feedback, but since O'Hara was posted here I'll give the feedback here so others can benefit from it. I agree this custom is not ready for the Pre-SoV thread.

I'm not a fan of this design. There's nothing inherently wrong with having four powers on a card, but when doing so each power must be an important part of the design. Really, that's not just a statement for a four-power card but a statement in general for customs. O'Hara feels unfocused. The four powers are individually interesting, but they don't form a cohesive whole, rather just a grab bag of abilities.

Double Attack and Queen of the Buccaneers are overlapping in value add: they both provide more bang for an order marker. But I see no compelling reason that the design needs both. Either would do the job; having both is just overkill.

What is the point of Point Blank exactly? It seems to incentivize getting up in the fray, but the Life/Defense don't really support that. Is it there to punish melee units that are able to close the gap? Why punish units for playing the way they are meant to be played?

Flintlock Pistols is thematic and unique, but not worth having a fourth power for. Is the goal to have a downside to allow for the unit to be otherwise underpriced, so drafting and using become a bit of a gamble? If that's it, I suggest finding a less irritating and more gameplay-interesting way to do so. If it's just flavor, then it's really just a double annoyance. It's annoying for the user to have their attacks randomly fail even more often than usual, and it's annoying for everyone to have an extra die roll along with every O'Hara attack. If it was something like a chance of failure at range but not melee, it would play into Point Blank and make the character more melee-centric, or if the roll was only for the second attack of Double Attack and the misfire would cause injury to O'Hara, then it's a gamble that has actual gameplay effects. As-is it adds more frustration than it provides in theme.

Outside of powers, the name "O'Hara" feels distinctly human to me and doesn't feel like a good fit for a Half-Elf. (Is O'Hara supposed to be the Valhallan child of a Feylund Elf and an Earth Human or something?) Outlaw and Disciplined are an odd combo that require explanation, which isn't good for a design in general--you shouldn't have to look at side materials to understand what's on the card. (I'm not a fan of Merciful Q10 or lizard-arm Valguard for that reason.)

I really appreciate this feedback, and regret the circumstances that prompted it. O'Hara has evolved significantly since Scytale viewed it (see Kolakoski’s Pre-SoV Custom Corner in Custom Units & Army Cards), and many of these issues have been addressed, directly or indirectly. As this is the wrong forum for any further discussion of this unit, I pray that it be continued in the aforementioned Kolakoski’s Pre-SoV Custom Corner in Custom Units & Army Cards.

[Leaf_It]

I have been working with @Pumpkin_King again to bring his outlaw hero leader Jedidiah Mulroney into the SoV.

NAME = JEDIDIAH MULRONEY
GENERAL = UTGAR
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = OUTLAW
PERSONALITY = UNDERHANDED
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

5 LIFE
5 MOVE
7 RANGE
3 ATTACK
2 DEFENSE
110 POINTS

Utgar's Black Bullet
Once per game, before rolling attack dice with Jedidiah Mulroney, you may reveal the X Order Marker on this card to use Utgar's Black Bullet. If you do, you may roll 4 additional attack dice.

Outlaw Ambush
At the end of the round, you may reveal the X order marker on a unique Outlaw hero that you control and take a turn with that hero. Jedidiah Mulroney may be the hero to take a turn with Outlaw Ambush.

Major changes from the last time that Pumpkin King posted Jedidiah in here last year are:
- Range increased from 6 to 7, to match the other Outlaws. (with the exception of Josie)
- Price dropped to 110 because of other changes, and to match performance is testing.
- "Black Bullet" is now called "Utgar's Black Bullet" to add lore, and explain why it's so strong.
- Lowered Black bullet's bonus attack dice from +6 to +4, so that it's not quite so swingy.
- Changed the name of the second ability to "Outlaw Ambush" to bring the theme of the name more in line with with it does mechanically in the game.

Please let me know if there are any questions or concerns regarding this design. Thank you.

[Scytale]

Interesting. On the one hand, you can simply add a unit into your army that gets a free turn every round. On the other hand, it's 110 points for that privilege, and it's a single attack of 3 (though at a nice Range 7). I'm not sure how I feel about that either way.

I'm also not sold on adding a new personality here. I don't feel a strong thematic or mechanical pull to do so. I'm fine with creating new personalities, but only when there's a good reason. The proliferation of personalities makes it harder and harder to effectively play off that stat. Relatively minor, though.

Overall stats look good. I question the Attack 3, though. Going a little outside of the usual gunslinger stat line is ok, and it makes sense as a reason to give him order markers, but you don't need to give him numbered order markers. He gets free turns! It seems to me the unit would be all around better with Attack 2 and reduced cost.

[superfrog]

I’m not bothered by attack 3, and I like the exclusivity of Black Bullet and Outlaw Ambush.

Totally agreed with Scy about the personality.

Perhaps Oppose Ambush could require at least one order marker to have been revealed in an outlaw card during the round?

[kolakoski]

Well met!

"Going a little outside of the usual gunslinger stat line is ok, and it makes sense as a reason to give him order markers, but you don't need to give him numbered order markers. He gets free turns! It seems to me the unit would be all around better with Attack 2 and reduced cost." ~ Scytale

Cal the Smuggler, Garrett Burns, and Josie Whistlestop (60, 70, and 70 points, respectively) all have attacks of 3. I'd say that's normal for an Outlaw hero.

I initially had initially given this custom the Class of Outlaw, and naturally gave her an attack of 3. (I struggled with giving her a Range of 7 as well, it being that of the majority of gunslingers, including the Tombstone ones, but her pistols are flintlocks, but I wanted to nerf her a bit, given that she also had Double Attack and a few other things.)

I love the sculpt, by the way. Louis L'Amour's western detective Murdock carried a Schofield double action pistol similar to the one Jedidiah Mulroney is carrying. Rather than Outlaw Ambush, I'd give Jedidiah Mulroney Double Attack, and be done with it. I agree that Underhanded does nothing significant thematically, and one of the existing Personalities would better serve the unit.

P.S.: For some reason Utgar's Black Bullet brought to mind The Adventures of Robin Hood, the Errol Flynn movie. He always used a black arrow to kill the Norman soldiers who were raping and pillaging innocent Saxons. And Underhanded brought to mind a name for a power a Murdock custom might have. Such a custom might look like this:

$2.31 on sale/463 available

NAME = PAIGE MURDOCK
GENERAL = VYDAR
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = LAWMAN OR AGENT
PERSONALITY = TRICKY
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

5 LIFE
5 MOVE
7 RANGE
3 ATTACK
2 DEFENSE
??? POINTS

Double Attack
When Paige Murdock attacks, he may attack one additional time.

Undercover
Paige Murdock may not be targeted for any attack, including engagement attacks, or for any Special Power, by an opponent's figure, until after he has targeted an opponent's figure for an attack. (Help With Wurdz!?)

Murdock's Black Bullet
Once per game, before rolling attack dice to attack an opponent's Unique Hero that follows Utgar or Valkrill, you may reveal the X Order Marker on this card to use Murdock's Black Bullet. If you do, you may roll 4 additional attack dice.

Doesn't really need the last power, but it's the reason he follows Vydar, as opposed to Jandar.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Interesting. On the one hand, you can simply add a unit into your army that gets a free turn every round. On the other hand, it's 110 points for that privilege, and it's a single attack of 3 (though at a nice Range 7). I'm not sure how I feel about that either way.

I'm also not sold on adding a new personality here. I don't feel a strong thematic or mechanical pull to do so. I'm fine with creating new personalities, but only when there's a good reason. The proliferation of personalities makes it harder and harder to effectively play off that stat. Relatively minor, though.

Overall stats look good. I question the Attack 3, though. Going a little outside of the usual gunslinger stat line is ok, and it makes sense as a reason to give him order markers, but you don't need to give him numbered order markers. He gets free turns! It seems to me the unit would be all around better with Attack 2 and reduced cost.

You make a good point about the free turn no matter what. In testing I mostly used combinations of Outlaws, and occasionally mixed other things in, but I never actually played Jedidiah as the only Outlaw by himself. I was aware of the possibility, but I didn't really think about it (outside of Ornak builds) as I was focused on the Outlaw Leader angle.

All of the released unique Outlaw heros have an attack of 3. I'll even link so that you can check them yourself Cal the Smuggler, Garett Burns, Josie Whistletop. I had assumed that was part of the Outlaw foundation. Sure the Gunslinger doesn't, but they are the no name fodder, and they can still get buffed to 4 with relative ease. I also don't think a reduced cost is warranted, even with a lower attack, because a good chunk of his value comes from what he can do for the Outlaw faction.

Originally Posted by superfrog

I’m not bothered by attack 3, and I like the exclusivity of Black Bullet and Outlaw Ambush.

Totally agreed with Scy about the personality.

Perhaps Oppose Ambush could require at least one order marker to have been revealed in an outlaw card during the round?

I am glad you noticed that. The Black Bullet is deadly, but you sacrifice an activation to use it. It might be worth it, assuming you don't blank. It makes for some good decision making on your own part, thinking about when you want to use it, and makes your opponent wary of Jedidiah until it's been used.

That's a good idea. I should have thought to do that already.


---- ----



I have discussed it with Pumpkin King and have decided to make the following changes.
- Underhanded changed to Ruthless, Which is what Garett Burns has.
- Outlaw Ambush now requires an order marker to be revealed on an outlaw hero during the round. This still allows Jedidiah to work when he's alone, but you don't get a 4th order marker for free outside of an Outlaw army.

NAME = JEDIDIAH MULRONEY
GENERAL = UTGAR
PLANET = EARTH
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = OUTLAW
PERSONALITY = RUTHLESS
SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

5 LIFE
5 MOVE
7 RANGE
3 ATTACK
2 DEFENSE
110 POINTS

Utgar's Black Bullet
Once per game, before rolling attack dice with Jedidiah Mulroney, you may reveal the X Order Marker on this card to use Utgar's Black Bullet. If you do, you may roll 4 additional attack dice.

Outlaw Ambush
At the end of the round, if you revealed an order marker on an Outlaw hero this round, you may reveal the X order marker on a unique Outlaw hero that you control and take a turn with that hero. Jedidiah Mulroney may be the hero to take a turn with Outlaw Ambush.