Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[Scytale]

What is the availability of those two figures?

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by Scytale

What is the availability of those two figures?

I included some notes on that in the write-up (although I am not familiar on every store since I do not live in the US) - the largest stocks I found: Lastwall General has 20+ copies available on MiniatureMarket, the Human Hunter has 24 copies on Auggies, and both have large amounts for sale on EBay including from stores and not just individual sellers (was around 50+ for Lastwall General - mostly from the store "kingsoflight" and 200ish for Human Hunter when I checked - "kingsoflight" has 100+, there are other sellers with at least 10 copies and then the usual 1s-2s from people). Lastwall General is also still in stock on the Paizo site. There are def. smaller amounts in stock from some other sites on both as well - for example, figurephenatix.com has 4 Hunters and 7 Generals, magicminiman.com has 4 Hunters and 6 Generals, I just now checked rpglocker.com which has 9 Hunters and 31 Generals; the stock should def. be out there for Unique Hero figures.

EDIT: Some more Hunters: overthebrick.com has 16 Hunters, lingstergames.com has 5 Hunters, beholderthebargains.com has 2 Hunters.

[Sir Heroscape]

I'm no judge...but adding both a bonding Ranged unit and a bonding, highly mobile, Can-opener to an already A tier squad seems a bit much.

I'm curious to hear how your testing with KoW was? what kind of matchups you ran, and the overall success of those games?

[caps]

I'm intrigued by the idea of adding bonding heroes that will play very differently from the existing options. Hopefully they're priced high enough to not be better than the best available builds for KoW armies already.

[Captain Stupendous]

Originally Posted by Sherman Davies

Thanks for the consideration, guys. I'll try and retool Nordlung using the feedback given, run a few games, and see about resubmitting him down the road.

I really hope you do; this miniature is too awesome not to find a home in VC

[Shadowking]

Jan mostly suffers a lot from not being Gilbert in my experience; if you bring both of them it eats up so many points that you can't afford to bring enough Knights to make it worth it (even at 500 points non-Delta you can only fit 3 squads of Knights, 500 Delta you can't even fit 3 Knights, Gilbert, Jan into 500). If you threw him into an enemy army on his own he tended to just die - double base and 3 defence in melee are not ideal for being mosh-piled - so the best thing I found to do is sort of slowly advance him up and then use him to point-break the frontline. If he can get at something like an exposed Raelin or other high value small/medium hero then you can typically "trade" him for that but generally the other player can accomodate for that and block off easy access barring sometimes getting an unlucky initiative switch.

I think Alastair is generally the better option in terms of a Knight-bonding "can-opener" style figure (and also costs 10 less points) if you're in the market in something to fill that role since his Overextend lets you get the big move still where it counts, he can bust open a screen and get to the priority target over the two turns on one OM instead of needing two, and throw two sets of 5 dice if he needs/wants to (and the 5-dice attacks can benefit from height) - and also doesn't carry the somewhat fiddly movement restriction to get his 5 attack dice, which the opponent can also often play around by positioning their valuable targets exactly 3 spaces away. I was intentionally trying not to power-creep Alastair with his design, although he does do some things better/differently - Jan is better where SAs are important to have, and his 8 move every turn instead of just once per round can be stronger in some cases (and Evasive, but he trades that off partially for being a much bigger figure and easier to target-spot with ranged attacks), but I felt like consistently he's weaker - and the stronger Knight builds rarely run even Alastair barring something like a low figure count event from what I understand. I also did give some consideration to what I think is a fairly more conservative price of 130 points rather than 120 - at which point I don't think there's much argument any more that he can be as good as Alastair even - so that is an adjustment I have in my back pocket for future if the reception at 120 isn't good.

Kafnirra in Knights builds also pay a fairly high additional points tax for including her, since you're paying for the value of her Totem ability that you can't use on your Knights (specifically she also has a low range value to not be able to hide safely far behind a block of Knights and snipe). I think she can still have some decent value with Knights in melee VS melee games, kind of like an expensive & slower/less-range Me-Burq-Sa, but ranged units can target her down from behind Knights and can pretty much always outrange her barring a handful of squads like Teeth of the Makwa (again, intentional). I kinda wanted her to feel in a similar place to Hrognak with Knights, in that you can do it but it's not gonna be the "best" competitive choice - and she also doesn't bring the extra movement utility or anything to Knights that he does for your Gruts.

She's decently good at sniping off low-defence melee figures but you're sacrificing a Gilbert move every time you use her which can be really bad - I mostly found that you wanna use Gilbert so much that it can be tough to even get her into a good position without sacrificing a lot of potential development, so when you bring her into the fight in the midgame she often won't have height on the targets either. Like Jan, she also is tough to fit in points-wise with Gilbert as well, and while I think there are some options without Gilbert for a sort of "slow-roll" build where you just turtle the Knights and ping with her it def. feels a lot worse than with Gilbert (4 move is just so slow especially at getting over any sort of height). Even lower-attack range figures like Mohicans I found did not have a terrible time sniping her off since she can only fire back within 4 spaces and if you're using her and not Gilbert the Knights can only move up four figures 4 and have a much harder time threatening whatever ranged unit it is back.

[Scytale]

to review Annhunhounds. I'm not thrilled by the availability, but Paizo still selling them on their site is a good sign. Other Judges may feel differently. The design is solid.

to review Jan Sobieski. We have plenty of Human Champions, but Jan feels different than the support-focused ones we usually get. I suspect the design would be better toned down, with lower stats and a lower price to use as a quick-strike vanguard or assassin unit. As-is he needs to provide significant value after using his Charge to be worth the points and I doubt he can, but I'm willing to give him a fair shake.

to review Kafnirra. Multi-attacking heroes are really, really good bonding with a strong squad. Ranged heroes are really, really good bonding with a strong squad. This is both. The short range certainly helps (but feels odd), but a good player can maximize units like this is terrifying ways. I don't even care if she's balanced; a squad like Knights should not have a ranged bonding option. Being forced to be all melee is one of their few weak points.

[Shadowking]

Originally Posted by Scytale

to review Annhunhounds. I'm not thrilled by the availability, but Paizo still selling them on their site is a good sign. Other Judges may feel differently. The design is solid.

to review Jan Sobieski. We have plenty of Human Champions, but Jan feels different than the support-focused ones we usually get. I suspect the design would be better toned down, with lower stats and a lower price to use as a quick-strike vanguard or assassin unit. As-is he needs to provide significant value after using his Charge to be worth the points and I doubt he can, but I'm willing to give him a fair shake.

to review Kafnirra. Multi-attacking heroes are really, really good bonding with a strong squad. Ranged heroes are really, really good bonding with a strong squad. This is both. The short range certainly helps (but feels odd), but a good player can maximize units like this is terrifying ways. I don't even care if she's balanced; a squad like Knights should not have a ranged bonding option. Being forced to be all melee is one of their few weak points.

I am not entirely familiar with the timeline of different VC members and who participated in creating which specific units etc; just interested to know if you personally would you say the same about Hrognak if we pretended he didn't exist and was being submitted to SoV now? Not being as tanky, a multi-attacker (even if Kafnirra has to be engaged for it) or a 3-dice attacker is less powerful in those aspects for sure (of course, as a trade-off he's also a decent bit cheaper and gives a decently strong passive buff even when not activating him); mostly just curious about the "I don't even care if she's balanced; a squad like Knights should not have a ranged bonding option." part because I would have figured that to apply to Heavies just as much as Knights - at least, assuming the premise applies to either for a person. I'm not trying to do like a "gotcha" or anything, just trying to understand where you fall in the differences in concept between her and Hrognak (if indeed there are any). I do agree with you on the premise that Knights shouldn't get access to a hyper-efficient ranged bonder; that was part of why I aimed her at trying to be generally overcosted/not as good to bring with Knights as MacDirks or Dreadguls despite it still being a potential option.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Shadowking

I am not entirely familiar with the timeline of different VC members and who participated in creating which specific units etc; just interested to know if you personally would you say the same about Hrognak if we pretended he didn't exist and was being submitted to SoV now? Not being as tanky, a multi-attacker (even if Kafnirra has to be engaged for it) or a 3-dice attacker is less powerful in those aspects for sure (of course, as a trade-off he's also a decent bit cheaper and gives a decently strong passive buff even when not activating him); mostly just curious about the "I don't even care if she's balanced; a squad like Knights should not have a ranged bonding option." part because I would have figured that to apply to Heavies just as much as Knights - at least, assuming the premise applies to either for a person. I'm not trying to do like a "gotcha" or anything, just trying to understand where you fall in the differences in concept between her and Hrognak (if indeed there are any). I do agree with you on the premise that Knights shouldn't get access to a hyper-efficient ranged bonder; that was part of why I aimed her at trying to be generally overcosted/not as good to bring with Knights as MacDirks or Dreadguls despite it still being a potential option.

Heavies are a different thing, and not as strong of a screen as Knights. They get more from their ability to disengage and get improved positioning. Knights are a screen without a ranged attacker to bond with. They are tanky, solid combatants that are really deadly to try to slip past. They do rely heavily on Gilbert to get into combat (another weakness), but once they get there they can hold out well. That's where things can get congested and they are unable to press with their full might alongside a hero, but that's remedied by an archer who can shoot over them.

MacDirks? Yeah, I'd be ok with that bonding. As a screen they are paper. Dreadguls? They are also offensively-focused. While both would obviously benefit from a ranged bonder, it's not a naturally amazing pairing.

[Shadowking]

OK, yeah, where you're coming from does make sense; I didn't find it to be quite as big of a deal when I was playing - most of the good melee actually felt like it has a reasonable answer/response in a lot of cases because of her limited range, unless you're really pushing to keep her forward and surrounded at all times by Knights at the cost of attacks and Gilbert activations (it's often difficult to keep the Knights funneling up consistently *and* get good use from her at the same time); Heavies can Chomp and Disengage to get at her, Romans can just grind with bigger numbers/outrange with MBS, I didn't play Axegrinders but with 6 move they also seem like they could out-position her to some degree, although Coward's Reward does probably hurt there - and the various ranged can outrange her and gun for her first if they wish. I think the biggest difference is usually the extra attack dice she gets compared to Hrognak, since Grimnak and/or Nerak are often enabling the Heavies to also have the Knight statline with the 4 defence to make them equally as tanky as a screen (though you do pay the 30 additional points for that, it does give her a better chance of punching through stuff).

They are good thoughts though; if all the other judges also give her a poor reception I think there are ways I can look at tweaking the card for sure, I just felt that given a Wild Human Champion comes with the inherent ability to bond with Knights whether that is the main goal of the design or not, it was more interesting to do something interesting for them (that also paid a sort of "points inefficiency tax"/had other stuff to make it try not to be the kind of option that was crazy good for them) that still could offer some useful utility but was more focused on supporting the other two squads. There are certainly ways to still do that (or to just generally embrace the nature of a more MacDirk/Dreadgul-focused hero) without *requiring* a ranged attacker specifically though.

[Sherman Davies]

Originally Posted by Captain Stupendous

I really hope you do; this miniature is too awesome not to find a home in VC

Thanks, I might be getting some playtesting assistance from @chas and @ThrasherDarkrai in the summer, so we'll see how it goes.

[Blue Trails]

Originally Posted by Scytale

That availability is ... not good. Ones and twosies scattered across many sites is not good availability in general, but for a Common unit it's especially bad. Moreso for a cheap potential bread-and-butter type squad this appears to be.

Yeah; the availability is unfortunate. I've reached out to Paizo, Inc., to see if I can ascertain the exact number of Deep Cuts Hell Hounds they have in stock, but I haven't yet received a response. I'll keep you guys in the SoV apprised of the situation.