Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

[Typhon2222]

Originally Posted by OEAO

Congrats Flash- Battlefield 23 has been inducted!

[superfrog]

Highways and Dieways, Swarm Edition
This is a good map, and I'm glad it exists. In some important ways the gameplay is preferable to its predecessor (no spider denial in the SZ, ability to go to the right out of the SZ). It has a few minor drawbacks as well (most notably the outside sand isn't level 3).

But overall the build just looks ugly, in my opinion. The sand 3-hex creates a weird empty space that is surrounded by 5 spaces, which is a weird look. There are random rock and grass hexes outside the SZ on the left which look like they're just leftovers (because they are).

To me, this is a fine map that ought to be used if you want H&D but can't spare enough RotVs for it. We have H&D inducted (rightfully so), but despite its merits I don't think H&D Swarm deserves a separate induction.

[Sir Heroscape]

Playtesting Map #1
Sets: RotV, TJ, FotA



Used in:
Peoria Monthly April 2022
C3V Playtesting Tournament 2021

[superfrog]

Hmmm, I think I'm gonna give a quick on this one, on two grounds that I'll explain here below.

1: This map has a lot of similarities to 1Mmirg's HotHWJE which we just shot down recently: a RotV/TJ/FotA map with a flat center road that blends up into two rock plateaus. This map certainly has an edge over High Ways with the level of interest on the hills, there's some good height variation here.

But I think it falters in some ways in comparison, most notably that the plateaus are difficult to move through thanks to the ruins which go perpendicular to the main flow of the map. And then I think the level 3 grass hex on each right side is just a little too much of a sweet Raelin perch for the cases when the map does collapse to one side or the other as sometimes can happen.

2: The start zones here are just odd to me, both shape and aesthetics. In general I think good SZs should be able to be captured in a few words, either by a clear line or by a clear terrain distinction (i.e. "back two rows" or "level 1 rock"). This does neither and is a prime candidate for getting played wrong (vegie mentioned to me that at the Peoria event he didn't know that single sand hex on the third row was included in the SZ).

What compounds the SZ issue for me is that there is terrain available to make the SZ more logical. There's a leftover grass 7-hex and 5 2-hexes and 3 3-hexes and 6 1-hexes, and 3 water tiles as well. That's plenty to swap out the left sand, maybe also the center sand out in front of the SZ, and add another hex to the back two rows to make it a clear-cut SZ distinction/

[OEAO]

Playtesting Map #1: I'll join superfrog on this one. The starting zone is enough for me to downvote when it's something that is so easy to fix. Beyond that, I'm concerned about the obvious Raelin perch, the amount of 1-hex-wide chokepoints, and the lack of glyphs. No to induct.

[OEAO]

I'll nominate the following three maps that have already seen the highest level of play:

Trouble Once Lurked Beneath by tannergx (GenCon 2019)

Trouble Once Lurked Beneath was way ahead of its time in terms of a road's interaction with dynamic height. Although it uses the same sets as Turmoil, it provides an entirely different experience. It provides more interesting and balanced gameplay than Burial Marsh too.


Venom by Flash_19 (GenCon 2019)

Venom is a rare mirror symmetry Flash map. It was one of the first of his maps to catch the attention of InfectedSloth and myself. It is consistently solid.


Honor by Flash_19 (ScapeCon I)

Honor dives deep into the split starting zone theme and lives to tell the tale. The road makes movement manageable, and the height shifts are just interesting enough to make it work. There's a reason it was the map the ScapeCon I Championship finals was played on.

[superfrog]

Interesting nominations. In no particular order, this set contains one slam-dunk yes, one I'll have to think about and get a lot more experience on, and one I'm leaning no from the gate.

[OEAO]

Gamebear brought up a good point that submissions feel slightly empty without some sort of small sales pitch (as was custom during the BoV days). Although it isn't required, I'd recommend submissions include a brief reason as to why the map should be inducted into WoS.

[OEAO]

Trouble Once Lurked Beneath: This is one of three tannergx maps I've played, and it is pretty easily my favorite.

Let's start with a few negatives. Trouble Once Lurked Beneath isn't really a looker (much like Burial Marsh; superfrog's Turmoil is a decidedly more attractive map than either TOLB or BM). It also isn't quite as smooth moving out of the starting zone to the right as it could be. However, going right is still viable, and the protection that the rock outcrop grants figures moving to the glyph, and the general strength of the rock height (as opposed to swamp when moving left) makes up for it. The road also helps mitigate the issue, and it provides nice lateral movement across the map.

Speaking of road, Trouble Once Lurked Beneath was way ahead of its time. Effective blending of road up into the surrounding height was, and still is, very uncommon. Although there are some notable exceptions (such as Forest Fire and Aeon), it is far more common that you have a simple "here's the road (all on one-two levels), and here's the height around the road" (see Highways and Dieways, Remains of Clionesia, Wyrmwalk, Bad Moon Rising, Dance of the Dryads, Battlefield 23, Turmoil, Venom... the list goes on and on). And then you have the maps that try to blend it, but it just doesn't quite work (such as Invasion; the map works, but the road placement hardly blows you away).

Of course, a static "here's the road, and here's the height" approach works. It's fine, and it's safe. It's almost impossible to make a bad road map. However, blending the road with the higher terrain levels provides much more interest. No, you don't usually want the top of your height to be dominated by road, as you want people to have to make difficult decisions. But when a road is smartly blended up into the height, and when it provides for just enough access to the height (and threatening plays), it can really elevate a map (see my reviews of Aeon and Forest Fire).

Combine this road blending with the dynamic height present on the map and you have a map that consistently provides for very interesting and tactical games. It isn't the easiest map in the world to play on, but it is well worth the mental effort. Trouble Once Lurked Beneath is a great map that is well deserving of a spot in the WoS. YES to induct.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by OEAO

it is far more common that you have a simple "here's the road (all on one-two levels), and here's the height around the road"

ToLB literally has 1-hex on lvl3 on each side...and all the other road is - as you say - all on one-two levels. I wouldn't consider that blending with height when armies can control lvls 4 and 5 on the hill while avoiding engagements from the road AND controlling the glyph on their side in the meantime.

it provides nice lateral movement across the map.

If this map isn't an egregious example of the "two-hills problem" I don't know what is. A 5-move figure can hardly move from one hill to the next without running into the tree or being forced to engage from low ground. i.e. lvl 4 and lvl 5 on each hill can sit and pot-shot all day. Additionally "he who has the better glyph" on his side, just wins.

Sorry, not trying to "cast stones", or make an argument, this map just seems very obviously to do the very things that have failed many a previous map.

[Sir Heroscape]

The End of the Line
Sets: RotV, FotA

Reason:
It has glyphs. It has a startzone you can tell/show someone in one sentence. It doesn't have any obvious Raelin perches and very few 1-hex chokepoints. Need I say more? :P

Used in:
Jan 2022 Peoria Monthly
PNW May 2022

[superfrog]

Definitely looks worth a shot. I’ll be curious to see the feedback from the tournament from this past weekend as well.