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Custom Units & Army Cards Fan-created HS army cards for units, glyphs, and equipment |
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#4333
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Mindless Pack Enhancement would definitely help out the Thralls a lot. I like how it doesn't tweak their unreliability too much, still placing an emphasis on that roll for how many activations they get.
I agree with the others who pointed out that Elbad could be really fun as a Thrall. It would probably necessitate a life drop to account for Nicholas bringing him back, but that would actually be a very fun synergy. As the opponent, you suddenly have to weigh whether it's worth killing Elbad multiple times to cut down on the Mindless Pack Enhancement, while he can suddenly become much more aggressive. Perhaps in that instance, limiting the additional turn from Mindless Pack to other thralls could be an avenue to explore for avoiding him essentially "bonding" with the Thralls every time. That would also make Necromantic Nexus more generally useful. There really aren't a ton of times that come to mind when I would rather place a revived Undead in my starting zone instead of on the battlefield, but if Elbad is actually frequenting the battlefield himself, then I could see it having a lot more utility. Quote:
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#4334
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
I hate that I have to answer my own question about what design space Ebol "blocks" (and why it's a non-issue, or really an imaginary one), but at least I finally figured it out. It's not the Sharks or Menacers that I've been so focused on meta wise. No one can design a unit more powerful than a Hydra and have it pass anyways. It's the OM Commanders.
We already have figures that throw OMs "freely". Technically activations, as only Bol and Rygarn move OMs currently. Nonetheless, there are OM Hubs already in Heroscape. Currently, all of them are restrained in numerous different ways: Type (Uniqueness/Cardinality), Species, Class, Personality, range restrictions, being adjacent after taking a turn (Command Couriers), etc. or a mix of any number of those. Now all of these OM hubs provide security for your OMs, which is why we place them on those figures basically up until end game. Common Squads have so many figures that it is impossible to hunt them all down until end game, if it comes to it. Even so, the last Arrow Grut hiding in the start zone behind the ruin on Fire Isles can still activate Krug to hunt down Isamu behind the opponent's ruin in their start zone. Similarly, Common Heroes with similar bonding can do the same thing. With Wyrmlings, if you have 1 Black and 1 Red Wyrmling in the heat of battle, and one Red Wyrmling sitting in your SZ, you put all of your OMs on the Red Wyrmlings because the Red Wyrmling in your SZ can activate the Black Wyrmling and either itself, or the other Red Wyrmling if it is still alive. Note that all of the above figures, and Heroes like the Kato, Kurrok, Talingul, etc. avoid being overshadowed by Ebol by giving their factions a boost - they are each able to activate multiple units in their respective factions instead of them taking a turn. Something that Ebol can't do. Sure, Ebol can activate Kantono, but Ebol doesn't directly activate the other Ninjas as well. It is Daishi that does that in coincidence with gaining an OM from Ebol. Ebol is unnecessary in such armies. These OM Commanders are the light, showing us where Ebol's shadow does linger. Those places are narrowed down to units that only activate "1 unit" per OM, something that Ebol can do equally. These units currently include the Marro Hive, Omegacron, the Command Couriers, and the Minions of Utgar. The Marro Hive is even more vulnerable than Ebol, given that it's the biggest figure in the game and can't move. However, it gives its faction something Ebol can't - Rebirth. Also worth noting that the figures the Hive bonds with wouldn't need Ebol, or for that matter, the Hive itself, if it wasn't for Rebirth. Omegacron and the Command Couriers, for starters, can actually activate up to 2 different cards. I'll explain each in their respective paragraphs. Omegacron's activations are a little complicated, since he can mix different squads together. This is already much different than Ebol, even if the end result is 3 figures moved and 3 figures attacked. The key difference is that Omegacron could, most usefully, move Repulsors to keep a screen intact, and then attack with Snipers from a distance. Beyond that, Omegacron himself has much better base stats and a double attack to boot. He is also Large which gives him some invulnerabilities that Ebol doesn't have (of course it makes him vulnerable to some things Ebol isn't vulnerable to as well). The Command Couriers can activate themselves and a Vydar Hero, if they choose not to attack. This is still useful, as they can reposition in doing so. Additionally, as Common Heroes, they are able to draft 2 Command Couriers and still have 10 points left over. This instantly puts them at an advantage over Ebol as to which OM Hub the Vydar Heroes prefer, as they are much more reliable than Ebol. Common Hero status, an extra move and defense die, and Fleet Footed all help them keep the OMs afloat while in danger. They don't have quite have the same benefits from being a Common Hero as what I described above since they can't activate each other like Wyrmlings and other Common Factions, however. Still, once all of the Vydar Heroes are gone, eliminating all of the OMs on them is much harder than Ebol when they can split in two different directions. Finally, while they share the same attack value, because of the their survivability they are much more equipped to put up a fight late in the game than Ebol is. The Minions of Utgar are actually super interesting because they already have Ebol's power. With Utgar's Orders, they can take a turn with one Kyrie Warrior who follows Utgar instead of themselves. You can just dump all of the OMs on them and pick and choose when you need to move up Taelord or Runa. Interesting way to pop Ebol like the zit he is. The only way I can see Ebol blocking a design is if that design doesn't offer any more advantages to the unit it bonds with any more than Ebol does and has similar survivability as Ebol. Doesn't feel like that design is worth shutting Ebol out of the VC, because that design wouldn't make it anyway. This whole "Ebol blocks design space" is BS. |
#4335
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
You don’t have to answer it. Nobody cares what the answer is. Please let others have their time in the workshop now. If you still don’t understand, read over the past few pages.
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#4336
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
I'm a designer. I get push back ALL the time on my ideas and powers in the designs I create personally AND internally in the C3V. It hurts sometimes...but I have to trust that as a designer I inherently have "blinders on" towards the way I see my design. Others who see the design get to see it from a different perspective and often see where the design falls short and can help the design by providing that feedback.
As I see it, you've had a wonderful opportunity to get SO MANY people (inside and outside the C3V) to give feedback on Ebol and help you playtest it even. But, I haven't seen you once attempt to understand, acknowledge or consider that the feecback is valid...in fact you've actively argued against every point people have brought up against the design. Take the feedback and take it to heart. Think about it, process it and try to understand why the design fails. It may take time (it takes me weeks sometimes) to come around and realize why it caused so many issues...but it's important to come to that realization, otherwise your time WILL be wasted if the design never changes. Sir Heroscape's Content
Customs, Maps, Battle Reports YouTube Channel, Trade List, 'Scaper of the Month, Burnout Format Tourney Record: 309 - 141 Online Record: 19 - 22 |
#4337
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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If you still don't understand, read over the past few pages. And when any of you finally understand, and want to stop giving the same pathetic answer each time you post, Ebol will be waiting. Thank you. |
#4338
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Sigh. HS2010, people are getting annoyed with you just like you are getting annoyed with them. Is anything constructive being said about Ebol now?
Since you are so insistent, I do not like the "All OMs must be placed on Ebol" power. It restricts what I can do as a player. It also restricts the design space of "I want to make putting an OM on this card cost more than usual". Like maybe I want to design a card that you can't put OMs on unless certain criteria are met. Whatever. Now please step back and do not post in this thread for a little while. Think about what was said. And then think about the emotions behind what was said. Sometimes a post does not make logical sense because it is trying to express the emotion to the poster and many people have had a strong emotional reaction to Ebol. So, please let it rest for a day or two. |
#4339
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#4340
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
I love Elbad the Igor,
@NecroBlade
. “Yes, master.” It made me smile. I leave it to others to determine its suitability for the SoV. Miss you, buddy!
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#4341
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2 Cents
I love Minion as a class.
~Dysole, watching the rest unfold My Twitch Channel where I play Scape and other things My YouTube Channel where the games get uploaded later Dysole's Draft Rankings Map Thread (Not responsible for psychic damage) Customs Battle Reports This sentence is seven words long. This sentence is not seven words long. |
#4342
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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Elbad being a Thrall does not concern me in terms of power. As an uncommon hero, definitely, but as a unique I think it's fine. A single attack of 3 at low range is a nice addition, but not overpowering by any means. And it's not like the Thralls are shaking up the meta. I certainly appreciate the idea of trying to do a non-bonding addition, though. From here I think you have two potential directions: 1) Accept the design for what it is, a figure that sits back in the starting zone and gives a helpful boost. Nexus likely needs to be dropped as not useful, though there may be rare cases where spawning back in the starting zone is preferable. 2) Force a reason to put him near the front lines. For example, have Mindless Pack Whatever only work if all activated Thralls are with 6 clear sight spaces of Elbad. Or give him a handy stat boost aura for Thralls or Undead. Or higher offensive output. (I'd suggest added defensive strength, but I don't think that would make a difference. Still not worth putting order markers on, and nothing with a cheerleader boost like Mindless Pack Whatever will be used as a defender, regardless of stats.) Quote:
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#4343
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
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Now that I've posted it, I do, too. Quote:
2) Seems doable. Technically makes him a little weaker, but certainly gives the power a chance to shine. Quote:
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While I was making edits, I also came up with an alternative wording for Necromantic Nexus that expands the power a little (balancing the slight nerf to Mindless Pack Command in a way). Now if you manage to squeeze Elbad in with multiple Esenweins, they can all benefit from his magic. Cyprien + Sonya? Marcu alongside a more expensive sibling? Heck, even with just Elbad and Nicholas you gain 5 additional spaces adjacent to Nicholas to place Thralls. Let me know what you think! (I liked the card I first posted, now I think I really love it.) Arena of the Valkyire - Help create Heroscape's next Master Set! Trade List C3V Brainstorm never not funny Pepperony - 14/09/13 |
#4344
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Re: The Pre-SoV Workshop
Mindless Pack Command is a nice improvement in that it makes Elbad a necessarily more dynamic figure, but it might have slipped into "too difficult/weak to be worth the effort" territory. Playtesting will tell. The big question will be, is it better to spend points and order markers to position Elbad, or are you better off just focusing on the Thralls instead?
I think the change to Nexus is a mistake. The power went from one where you want Elbad in a good position, to one where it's better to leave Elbad in the starting zone. It's a (not all that useful) ability buy for your other Undead that doesn't require Elbad to do anything at all. |
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