Tournament Map Feedback Thread

[Shurrig]

Thanks for the feedback vegie!

[Sir Heroscape]

I’m hoping to share more in depth thoughts later as well, but quick summary:
- Agree with Vegie on April 9th and Nightfall as my favorite maps…
- Disagree with Vegie on Healing Waters. I feel quite the opposite in fact, that I feel this map has a few issues that can’t be overlooked. More on that later…
- Mostly agree with Vegie on Dark Fulcrum and Hydra. Overall fine maps, but not ALWAYS gunna give you the peak game regardless of matchups.

[Typhon2222]

@vegietarian18 — and @Dysole and @Sir Heroscape — thanks for the feedback on the SC3 map pool! It's always a big favor to cartographers, and fun to read.

[gbizzy]

Nice to see so many players also enjoyed April 9th & especially Nightfall which was by far my favorite map at SC3. I ended up playing more games on it than any other map and still came away feeling like every game was interesting and enjoyable.

[caps]

I copied Vegie's post for pictures and title but tried not to read any of it so I could go into this "cold."

Nightfall by Typhon_2222



I only played a few games on this one. It seems like a good 1xBftU, 1xRttFF, 2xMarvel map. I enjoyed my games on it. I never had to try to attack from one side of the map to the other; my games tended to center on either one players startzone (typically for matchup reasons) or one side of the map (usually based on which glyph was stronger).

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Ascension by Flash_19



I lost a game to time on this map that I'm still salty about; I had 3 Cathar in striking distance of my enemy's 5-life hive and single remaining Stinger. With one more round of play (or a smaller map) I win that game. So that skews my perception of the map.

I enjoyed my other games on it and I think the center is really good. It just seems a little overly long; I'm not sure what to make of that. Maybe it is good for a tournament map pool to have some big maps (though if it is, it feels like at least half of the maps should be this big, so that people are forced to account for them when army building). On the other hand, I think this map would be better if it were a little shorter from startzone to startzone, but that could just be a hot take.

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Dark Fulcrum by Gamebear



I like this map, and I enjoyed my games on it. I'm not sure if it accomplishes its (apparent?) objective of having two hills that are balanced for melee. Shadow+Jungle is great for approaching melee, but then the Shadow is also useful for screening units and kiting range. The biggest problem for this map is probably the 3-hex level 3 on the right of each start zone. It is very easy to pod up there. In some matchups you don't even need to move Raelin. In non-problematic matchups I think it makes the map more interesting (gives range v range a place to counterattack enemy figures on level 3), but I think it causes too many problems in bad matchups.

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Healing Waters OEAO Edition by OEAO and GameBear



Most of my favorite games were played on this map. I have two reservations about this map: 1) is the use of the walls. I think they can make it difficult for melee to approach the big hill. 2) the smaller hills outside the start zone on the Wannok side of the map can be very difficult place to approach in practice, primarily because the center seems difficult to move through and a real death-trap. The road helps accelerate, but if an opponent gets figures on any of the level 2 in the middle of the map you have to take LEAs to get at the back hill, and it is also easy for the opponent to block off the two road spaces at the front of the hill (which also gives them a launchpad for a counterattack or to get to the big hill). So although I loved my games on this map, they could have been really unpleasant with different matchups.

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August 2nd by BiggaBullfrog



I liked this map but didn't love it. Quite a few of my matches ended up centering on the 3-hex level 2 in front of my start zone, which is possibly an argument for removing those tiles. It is not very hard to pod there with a good screen, especially if you can grab the level 4 2-hex in the middle.

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April 9th by BiggaBullfrog



I love this map! I don't think I have any notes (I only played on it a few times).

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Hydra OEAO Edition by OEAO and Shurrig



I generally dislike this genre of map and that extended to this map. My games on it were fine. Could be pretty easy for a range+rats/screen army to make for a gross game against melee.

[caps]

I also liked Origin, no notes.

[Sir Heroscape]

My Feedback Extended:

After playing on all of these maps MULTIPLE time across the weekend and over the past 3months of scapecon prep events and playtesting...here are my findings.

Nightfall:
Easily my Top 2 map for the weekend. I liked that development through the sides felt natural and rewarding. Glyphs were accessible, contestable and movement from the center to the side didn't feel too bad. The central movement through the road is FAST, but I felt like it was easily enough countered if you simply took the height outside the startzone. Additionally, the height outside the startzone didn't ever feel safe because of the height firing down into it from the center. the counterplay in this map is really good. I always felt my games on this map were balanced regardless of the matchup.

April 9th:
The other Top 2 map for the weekend. I really liked how this map played across varying army compositions. I wasn't ever feeling like I couldn't get from one side to the other, and if I had to, I had jungle cover. The height on the edges were more used for flanking moves rather than podding up...which is good...and melee had a fine time developing throughout the map. The glyph used was also relevant and helped keep the action in the middle...so that the map never felt like it was a yours/mine hill fight. I was happy with all my games on this map.

Hydra:
This was the map I played the least on during the past few months. It's deceptively fast. For the number of LOS blockers and twists, you're actually able to drop a melee unit onto the first couple road hexes outside the startzone, and basically make it to the frontline of the opponents startzone/position. THat's good for quick assault on an opponents position. I didn't have too many issues on this map based on my games, but I can see how it could potentially be abused with the chokieness of the routes. But again, I didn't have any games like that, so I can't speak to whether or not those types of plays were counterable or not.

August 2nd:
This is not a lava map, it's a map with lava. Personally I didn't like that about it. I'd have much more preferred a traditional lava map with more risk/reward for the burn. This map felt very 1-note to me in the way my games played out. In terms of decision making, I never had to ask myself where I wanted to develop/control. It was always develop 1-2 units up through the middle, drop a couple on the 3-hex. Next turn, grab the hex height next to road and go from there. Like....there was nothing broken about the map, it just felt like the games played out the same and the positioning/development was obvious no matter the matchup/armies.

Healing Waters:
Opposite of Vegie, I think this was the most imbalanced of all the maps. The map punishes melee so incredibly hard. The only option for melee is to move their way up onto the big hill, gain the high ground and launch an assault from there down into the opponent. The reason melee can't go left is because of a few different things:
1) No road connection. This map is screaming for the ability to route the opponent position on the glyph side...but it can't be done. any melee developing left will have to go into low ground swamp and can't get back to lvl1 in one move. Additionally, any figure on that glyph completely locks down that side of the map. The easily/quick solution is to move the glyph out 1 hex, and connect the road...that would make a world of difference.
2) the left 7-hex for range. This position is a pods dream. They can sit raelin nearby, keep the range on the 7 hex and launch attacks into melee developing along low ground. if you try to get off the low ground road to develop...then you've got lvl 2 2-hex that while useful can be covered by 1 figure on the opposing side...and the lvl2 near the tree feels like it just slows you down and is difficult to hold before moving onto the 7-hex to assault that position. The safest route always felt like along the hill.

Origin:
Only played on it a couple times, but really liked how it played. I tended to lean right most of the time while I developed...but it wasn't obviously the only way to develop...both sides got action. My favorite feature is the ruin placement. I'm able to hide behind it and still in 1 turn get good position (even with 5-move figures) to assualt the hills.

Dark Fulcrum:
I didn't have any unbalanced matchups on this map like others have mentioned...though I can definitely see the issues there. the original Fulcrum had jungle, but this version has jungle and shadow. That makes a pretty big difference. While I like this version better than the original...I'm not surprised that some were not happy about how imbalanced it felt for melee to get such a massive advantage. That advantage I noticed almost always forced the range player into sitting on the 3-hex the whole game and just podding up there.

Ascension:
The map plays large. It never felt "broken" to me when I played on it, but there were times it felt like I was always in an uphill battle. I'm not exactly sure what feature specifically would have done that, but just a "feeling" I got. Otherwise, I was pretty happy with how most of my games played.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Healing Waters:
... The easily/quick solution is to move the glyph out 1 hex, and connect the road...that would make a world of difference.

Without doing any in-depth analysis, I have to admit this feels like it would have given me more options for my games on this map. I usually did not bother with the glyph side unless I really wanted Wannok, and the glyph + lack of connecting road made it really difficult to go around that way to flank an opponent holding the level 2 height on the other side of the glyph (a position that is very difficult to approach from the center of the map IMO, as I said earlier).

[Typhon2222]

Originally Posted by Typhon2222

@vegietarian18 — and @Dysole and @Sir Heroscape — thanks for the feedback on the SC3 map pool! It's always a big favor to cartographers, and fun to read.

And now @gbizzy , @caps , and @Sir Heroscape (now in depth) — thanks, good people, for the feedback. It's much appreciated.

[Shurrig]

Originally Posted by Typhon2222

And now @gbizzy , @caps , and @Sir Heroscape (now in depth) — thanks, good people, for the feedback. It's much appreciated.

Seconded!

[S1R_ART0R1US]

Here’s some feedback on the maps from ScapeCon, along with my record on them at the event.

April 9th (5-0): Probably my favorite map, and not just because of the wins here. I almost exclusively developed to the left, but the low ground spots in the center covered by jungle were very useful too. The glyph choice for ScapeCon was also solid (+1 attack once per OM) and useful in every matchup. The center region is just long enough to make ranged turtling on the 2-hex snow by ruin side of the hills hard to do, and if you can do it, the ruins make reinforcing that position tough. It’s also a very pretty map, so I’m glad we were able to add some TT into the terrain pool to be able to make it!

August 2nd (5-1): Really solid map, and I was surprised at how useful developing either left or right was versus the center. I liked the position of the highest single hex height, especially next to the road. I played Moltenclaw several times on this map and didn’t feel like he was broken at all. I think you could switch the safe two hexers with the center lava, but don’t think you need to. That height would be the best spot on the map, with you able to easily reinforce blocking figures parked on the two-wide road height by the center and only lava height attacks down to threaten it.

Ascension (0-4): I felt like this map favored range and was a bit hard to develop up into – I would rather have the ruins by the start zone than by the glaciers as they already provide solid LOS blocking. This is where I have to mention I had to play Moltenclaw without Greenscales after Krav took out 6/6 on two OMs! The height interactions in the center were well done, and I really liked the height dynamics on the sides by the single glaciers. There was lots of interesting play here in a few games where figures could block off/sit on height to force LEAs or disengage and work their way around. Adjusting the ruins position would be all I need to really like this map.

Dark Fulcrum (5-0): I never saw much of a need to develop left – hard to get access to the height, but easy for your opponent to come over and shoot down. Center shadow was very strong, but with that plugged things up easily. I didn’t play against rats here, but imagine they would be a huge pain. I still like this map, but enjoyment may be more matchup dependent that others.

Healing Waters (1-4): I liked this map for the most part, and particularly enjoyed the very center height arrangement with the tree and road and how it connected to the 7-hex with a central tree. What I think can be improved is movement to the hills. I would replace the water surrounded by the road with a swamp water or land tile, and push out the glyph to make the road connect – I never attacked the 7-hex with tree from the glyph side because of how hard it was to move there, and that may have also contributed to the difficulty of the center getting plugged up.

Hydra (4-2): This map is deceptively fast with the way height is distributed. The height is very planar (all road level 1, only one height spot not connected to the road, no adjacent height-on-height). I don’t like that the glyphs had such a different distance to the SZs, particularly on a random glyph map. Though not my favorite map in the pool, I think it’s still solid.

Nightfall (2-1): I haven’t quite figured out how to play on this map yet, but had good games once both players were developed into the center area. Development feels a bit slow though since you have to climb onto the road and not just step onto it. I also found the aesthetic difficult at points – the typical color blocking isn’t present here (ie green base, rocky level 2, snow level 3 etc) and I found myself needing to count height out frequently. Reminds me of a more square version of Blackridge.

Origin (1-1): No big comments here, but it is a big map: glad to see Valda used on it! Glyphs feel a bit his-and-hers due to the size. I’d played this before in an OHS season and thought it was good. The addition of the 2-hexers by the glyph are useful.

[Shurrig]

Hey all! I had some thoughts I wanted to share on the CCL Qualifier 3 map pool. Here comes a long one:

Flaxen Shard
In my opinion, this map plays just as good or better than Percolator. I am coming to realize how big of a fan I am of maps that have appealing middle height that’s countered by solid edges, and this map does this excellently. The games I played were low in figure count, but it didn’t seem like there wasn’t any good way to clog up any areas of the map. I usually chose to develop out the right side of the start zone, but I think both sides offer very decent jungle coverage. I often felt torn whether to go on the hill or the sides, and I like that the map made choosing to put my figures behind the ruins or next to a bush equally as good of options. Moving across was not difficult either despite the middle hill, think the level 2 and 3 pathing around the ruins helped with that. Overall, this was my favorite out of the CCL Q3 map pool and I’m looking forward to playing on it again.

Breakthrough
I’m not sure how to feel about this map. In my games played I felt the height on the sides were super neat, but the side roads felt a bit disconnected from gameplay and didn’t do much to help my armies develop or reach my opponents. the center road did play a big part of most of my games which helped both sides, and while the height in the middle was useful it was hard to contest against 2-hex figures (dragons love them). I really like the LoS blockers here and I think that’s probably the map’s strongest suit, that one tree adjacent to height and parallel to the glyph is *chef’s kiss*. My biggest worry point on this map is that level 3 one hex right out the start zone. not the best Raelin perch granted (it does cover one of those level 4 hexes), but it’s hard to get to and figures like Kaemon love sitting up there pinging their opponent’s figures, basically for free. I think that feature could work if the center was slightly smoother or the map was smaller by a couple hexes, but for now it just feels too safe of a position.

Nightblood
This map is a head scratcher as well. I think the gameplay is very smooth overall, but I was slightly disappointed that my games often ignored the edges and stuck to the center. I didn’t really have much of an incentive going to the sides other than the glyphs, and maybe that speaks more to the glyphs used than the map itself. I also felt like the shadow hexes near the start zone were more aesthetically pleasing than they were useful and felt like they could’ve been better placed elsewhere, but there were edge cases where I had a figure in the back of my SZ that used the side shadows. all said, I think this map used its lava quite well here. I had to make some fun and dynamic gameplay decisions with the shadow and high ground lava which often led to exciting brawls right in the middle of the map. while I think the one hexes on the side 7 hexes irked me every now and then, the fact they were lava meant figures didn’t stay on them for long, and the interplay of the four level 4’s on the other seven hexes provided decent counterplay. Nightblood is a very solid map like many Flash’s maps, but it plays a fair bit smaller in areas it shouldn’t.

Snipers at the Gates of Dawn
I really don’t want to talk about Snipers. I like the look of it and actually think it could play as a decent heat of battle map, but it’s very small, the middle is super chokey, and it was surprisingly frustrating to develop into, even for flying figures. I played two games in CCL Q3 and a couple practice games on this map before the tournament and just had several bad go’s at it, so I don’t think this works as a standard competitive map.

The rest of the maps here I did not play during the tournament but still had some thoughts.

Dry Peaks
Dry Peaks has a lot of things going for it. Aesthetically speaking it was one of my favorites out of the pool and I find the level 1 pathing through the center surprisingly unique for a competitive map. A couple issues I had when playing practice games on it were getting to the glyphs and contesting those middle-side level 3 hexes. It’s pretty easy to deny height to 2-hex figures those spaces, which isn’t the worst, but I think having a couple more level 3 options near the center would help curb the issue. Getting to the glyphs felt rougher than it should’ve from the middle. Again, not the worst, but it was notable. I’d probably play on this map again, but I think it’s just a few tweaks away from being really good.

Apocalypse Now
My thoughts on this map are pretty much the same as Superfrog's in his review for its WoS nomination. Very pretty, easy to develop on, and the center is tight but easier to access than it initially lets on. The center height is a great feature of this map, it’s very easy to contest and the battle always drew to that spot at one point or another during my games. The jungle and shadow here have also been placed very thoughtfully, and I appreciate the shadow next to the tree out of the start zone, allowing a safe space to develop through the middle. Strong, but not overpowered by any stretch. I’m very much looking forward to the next time I play a game on this map!