ScapeCon III Regulations

[OEAO]

If you are attending ScapeCon III, please take a few minutes to read the attached document before you arrive.

SLIGHT EDIT to the tickets section:
NOTE 1: You will not receive actual tickets. Instead, we will just look at your Convention-long record on .org (which excludes Three-Headed Hydra and Evening Events.
NOTE 2: Three-Headed Hydra and Evening Events do not count towards this.

[Sir Heroscape]

The only question/suggestion I'd have here is the "Rolling Too Many Dice" section.

As written...I believe the "advantage" would still go to the player who rolled too many dice. That is, if I roll 6 attack (when I should have rolled 5) and I roll 3/6 skulls, and my opponent makes me reroll...but then I roll 4/5 skulls on the attack...that just feels bad for the defender...that is, the attacker got a chance to reroll and ended with a better result.

I have always used the ruling (and I think this is an [un]official ruling in OHS?) that if too many dice are rolled, you reroll...but if the reroll results in a HIGHER result then the original roll, you take the original roll. So in the example above...even though I rerolled and got 4/5 even with the correct dice, the result we would take would be the 3 skull roll.

Personally, I think this is the most fair way to account for a player who rolls too many dice as it doesn't punish the other player. Because as the defender in this scenario, the hope would be to make me reroll so I get a lower result (maybe only 1 or 2 skulls), which is fair for incorrectly rolling dice...but in the event I roll BETTER on the reroll...it punishes the "victim" (so-to-speak) which I don't think is fair.

So, I'm hoping we can make this change:
ROLLING TOO MANY DICE
"If you roll too many dice, it is your opponent's choice as to whether you keep the result or reroll the correct amount of dice (if you roll too few, simply roll the extra die/dice). If your opponent asks you to reroll and the result is BETTER than the original roll, take the lower roll as the result."

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

The only question/suggestion I'd have here is the "Rolling Too Many Dice" section.

As written...I believe the "advantage" would still go to the player who rolled too many dice. That is, if I roll 6 attack (when I should have rolled 5) and I roll 3/6 skulls, and my opponent makes me reroll...but then I roll 4/5 skulls on the attack...that just feels bad for the defender...that is, the attacker got a chance to reroll and ended with a better result.

I have always used the ruling (and I think this is an [un]official ruling in OHS?) that if too many dice are rolled, you reroll...but if the reroll results in a HIGHER result then the original roll, you take the original roll. So in the example above...even though I rerolled and got 4/5 even with the correct dice, the result we would take would be the 3 skull roll.

Personally, I think this is the most fair way to account for a player who rolls too many dice as it doesn't punish the other player. Because as the defender in this scenario, the hope would be to make me reroll so I get a lower result (maybe only 1 or 2 skulls), which is fair for incorrectly rolling dice...but in the event I roll BETTER on the reroll...it punishes the "victim" (so-to-speak) which I don't think is fair.

I don't hate that way of doing things, but we're going to keep the rule consistent with prior years. It's still worse to roll extra dice, as you then have two chances to roll poorly and be stuck with a bad roll.

I believe OHS uses the same version of the rule as ScapeCon: https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...ad.php?t=47877.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I have always used the ruling (and I think this is an [un]official ruling in OHS?) that if too many dice are rolled, you reroll...but if the reroll results in a HIGHER result then the original roll, you take the original roll. So in the example above...even though I rerolled and got 4/5 even with the correct dice, the result we would take would be the 3 skull roll.

OHS ruling is basically the same as scapecon. The decision on that predates me but my guess is it's for similar reasons to what OEAO mentioned.

~Dysole, informationally

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I have always used the ruling (and I think this is an [un]official ruling in OHS?) that if too many dice are rolled, you reroll...but if the reroll results in a HIGHER result then the original roll, you take the original roll. So in the example above...even though I rerolled and got 4/5 even with the correct dice, the result we would take would be the 3 skull roll.

I am highly opposed to this.

As the opponent of someone who mistakenly rolls too many dice, I am then ALWAYS incentivized to force a re-roll, as it is a complete free-roll for me. You rolled 1/5? Try again. I might get lucky with an 0/4.

This is bad for a few reasons:
1) Incentivizes me to be harsh in a way that's probably semi-universally going to be viewed as 'bad for the game'. ALWAYS forcing a re-roll, even off low rolls, just isn't fun for your opponent when they do hit that rare 0/4 and get super punished.
2) Gives too harsh of a penalty for a genuine mistake; the opportunity to keep a roll thats < EV of the re-roll already punishes the mistake, and a harsher penalty isn't needed IMO. In the 1/5 -> X/4 example, the roller already lost an entire skull of EV by being forced to keep the 1/5; that's pretty harsh already.

[OEAO]

Originally Posted by Chris Perkins

I am highly opposed to this.

As the opponent of someone who mistakenly rolls too many dice, I am then ALWAYS incentivized to force a re-roll, as it is a complete free-roll for me. You rolled 1/5? Try again. I might get lucky with an 0/4.

This is bad for a few reasons:
1) Incentivizes me to be harsh in a way that's probably semi-universally going to be viewed as 'bad for the game'. ALWAYS forcing a re-roll, even off low rolls, just isn't fun for your opponent when they do hit that rare 0/4 and get super punished.
2) Gives too harsh of a penalty for a genuine mistake; the opportunity to keep a roll thats < EV of the re-roll already punishes the mistake, and a harsher penalty isn't needed IMO. In the 1/5 -> X/4 example, the roller already lost an entire skull of EV by being forced to keep the 1/5; that's pretty harsh already.

Yeah I was thinking about this while taking care of some other things, and I definitely agree with Chris (particularly the bolded).

[Sir Heroscape]

I mean, I guess I understand that...but there's no right answer because again if I force the reroll and he ends up getting max skulls after the reroll (or just rolling better), it feels just as bad cause then I'm left thinking that wouldn't have happened if he just rolled the correct dice in the first place.

So I guess you gotta decide "which is the lesser of two evils"

[Chris Perkins]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I mean, I guess I understand that...but there's no right answer because again if I force the reroll and he ends up getting max skulls after the reroll (or just rolling better), it feels just as bad cause then I'm left thinking that wouldn't have happened if he just rolled the correct dice in the first place.

So I guess you gotta decide "which is the lesser of two evils"

There is a right answer if you define the parameters better.

You seem to be defining it in terms of what feels better as the player who didn't make the mistake, which I can somewhat understand, but which I think is an incorrect basis for determining rules. Plenty of things that "feel better" at cursory glance in games have very bad effects when evaluated more carefully. Also, what feels better will change from player to player in some instances.

My view is that rules should solely care about (1) EV (expected value) & (2) incentives. Based on those, I think the current rule is the clear winner.

I see no difference between the re-roll hitting 4/4 and any other negative variance outcome happening to me in-game.

For what it's worth, if you punish the mis-roll even harder (i.e. your rule) then I'm more likely to triple-check my dice count with my opponent before each roll (which I'm incentivized to do more-so) and which will slow down games more (just like forcing my opponent to re-roll every single time will do). I see those both as negative effects.

I also think forcing someone to re-roll after a 1/5 hoping for a 0/4 feels pretty bad for the player who made an honest mistake with the extra dice, for what that's worth.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

The only question/suggestion I'd have here is the "Rolling Too Many Dice" section.

As written...I believe the "advantage" would still go to the player who rolled too many dice. That is, if I roll 6 attack (when I should have rolled 5) and I roll 3/6 skulls, and my opponent makes me reroll...but then I roll 4/5 skulls on the attack...that just feels bad for the defender...that is, the attacker got a chance to reroll and ended with a better result.

I have always used the ruling (and I think this is an [un]official ruling in OHS?) that if too many dice are rolled, you reroll...but if the reroll results in a HIGHER result then the original roll, you take the original roll. So in the example above...even though I rerolled and got 4/5 even with the correct dice, the result we would take would be the 3 skull roll.

Personally, I think this is the most fair way to account for a player who rolls too many dice as it doesn't punish the other player. Because as the defender in this scenario, the hope would be to make me reroll so I get a lower result (maybe only 1 or 2 skulls), which is fair for incorrectly rolling dice...but in the event I roll BETTER on the reroll...it punishes the "victim" (so-to-speak) which I don't think is fair.

As a TD I always gave the player whose opponent rolled too many dice the choice between
A) the other player rerolls completely
B) the other player subtracts the number of "successes" (skulls or shields) that they rolled over

So if I have 3 attack and accidentally roll 4 dice and get 3 skulls, my opponent can have me either:
A) reroll with only 3 dice
B) subtract 1 skull

Seems more fair to both players to me.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by caps

As a TD I always gave the player whose opponent rolled too many dice the choice between
A) the other player rerolls completely
B) the other player subtracts the number of "successes" (skulls or shields) that they rolled over

So if I have 3 attack and accidentally roll 4 dice and get 3 skulls, my opponent can have me either:
A) reroll with only 3 dice
B) subtract 1 skull

Seems more fair to both players to me.

That's quicker...and seems like a fair compromise for what I'm suggesting is the pain point.

[Chris Perkins]

Subtract 1 skull instead of keeping the bad roll is even more punitive to the player who made the mistake.

Idk, I suppose I just don't think that big of a punishment is needed when the option to keep a "bad" roll already lowers their EV from the attack.

[MegaSilver]

FWIW, Xwing just has you always reroll the correct amount of you roll too much. And if you roll too few you just roll more dice to make up the difference. It removes the agency from both players to decide the outcomes of the rolls. And you pretend the other results don't exist.

But as mentioned, the previous ruling exists already.