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Old August 8th, 2021, 10:31 PM
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Delta: latest updates and discussion

DELTA ARMY BUILDER

Delta is an alternative cost system for Heroscape. It reprices most Heroscape cards, with the goal of putting them on roughly equal competitive footing with each other in 400-600 point games on standard tournament maps.

Below are the latest Delta prices. Remember, "Delta VC" includes C3V and SoV units, while "Delta Classic" does not. Unique figures are in separate tabs from common/uncommons. In each tab the first column lists units alphabetically, the second lists them in order of price, and the third lists them in order of the discount/premium that you pay relative to the printed value.

These costs were last updated in August 2022.


You can use the Delta Army Builder to workshop armies in Delta.

You can also view the spreadsheets directly HERE. If you make a copy of that spreadsheet (File->Make a Copy) you will be able to use the builder to create armies in Delta.

The sheet also contains a tab showing all the adjustments from the previous version.

Last edited by dok; August 8th, 2022 at 01:34 AM.
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Old August 8th, 2021, 10:31 PM
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Re: Delta/Delta++: latest updates and discussion

The project was started by The_X_Marker in 2012, before being revived in 2021.

The current Delta committee consists of Chris Perkins, dok, and vegietarian18.

The purpose of this thread is for discussion of the Delta point totals, games involving these point totals, and possible updates. After an update is issued, the prices will remain stable for the next 4 months, after which we may issue a new version. We will discuss any issues raised here internally, and will make all changes by majority vote.

Thank you for your interest in the system.

Last edited by dok; August 9th, 2021 at 07:37 PM.
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Old August 9th, 2021, 03:35 PM
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Re: Delta/Delta++: latest updates and discussion

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Old August 9th, 2021, 07:35 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

After some discussions about how the previous naming system was a bit confusing, we decided to re-brand things slightly.

Delta is the name for the entire project.
Delta Classic is the name for the costs that only include classic figures (was "Delta")
Delta VC is the name for the costs that include both classic figures and VC figures (was "Delta+" or "Delta++" depending on where you looked)

Hopefully this will make it easier to understand which system is for what.

As far as the latest updates, briefly, we did a few things:
  • Continued to push down the price of some of the more overcosted heroes
  • Scaled back some of the price increases that were not really called for based on tournament results
  • Pushed the prices of the most abusable commons a bit more
  • Tried to think clearly about how the costs should be split between bonding heroes and bonding squad in different systems and price both appropriately
  • Slightly push the price of some of the highest-variance figures in the game, as it's probably not healthy for the metagame if these are the most efficient units.

Please let us know what you think, and especially let us know if you use Delta pricing in events or home games, and what results you get.

Last edited by dok; August 9th, 2021 at 08:17 PM.
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Old August 9th, 2021, 09:09 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

I quite liked this format at ScapeCon...though I discovered that 40pt Roman Archers are just as bad as 55pt Roman Archers

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Old August 10th, 2021, 01:46 AM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Very cool. A 10-minute scan of points and I am digging it. Well done.
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Old August 11th, 2021, 08:12 AM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

I really enjoyed this format while it was being run in OHS Season 41 and I think most of the changes made after the event have been on point. I do have a couple of nominations I'd like to make, however.

Ashigaru Harquebus 55 → 65 points

These guys are way, way too cheap at their current point value, even though you pretty much have to run ROTV Raelin with them. At 55 points a squad, they are insanely undercosted compared to the other 4-man ranged commons - 5 squads of 4th Mass costs 525 points, 4 squads of Microcorp Troopers/10th Reg + Raelin is 495, and yet 5 squads of Harquebus with Raelin only costs 390 points. Obviously the Harquebus aren't nearly as good as these other squads, due to being limited to Raelin's aura and having none of the 10th or Microcorp's other perks (e.g. Melee Defense 1). However, being able to run 5 squads of discount 4th Mass and still having room for a heavy hitter like J15, Alastair or Eltahale (depending on the point limit) is still far too strong for the meta. A 10 point price increase would put 5 squads of Harquebus + Raelin at 440 points, a much more comparable cost to the other 4-man ranged common squads.

Arkmer 50 → 55 points

Before Haduc came along, Arkmer was universally considered to be the strongest Elf Wizard for his points. (Well, aside from Ulginesh, but that's a completely separate debate). Base 4 attack at 5 range is excellent, particularly during the mid-endgame when you're down a couple of elves and Jorhdawn's and Chardris' specials have lost power. Engagement Strike is also incredibly helpful into melee armies - a 40% activation rate is no joke (45% with Haduc). Add to that his above-average survivability when adjacent to a bunch of other elves and you have a figure that's well worth a 5 point increase imo.

Haduc 105 → 110 points

Haduc is the second linchpin of the Elf Wizard build and I feel the amount of value that he provides for that army is not fully recognised by his current point cost. It cannot be overstated how game-changing the one automatic shield is - not only because it buffs the other elves’ defences, but also because it draws opposing attacks away from your damage-dealing elves and onto Haduc himself. Haduc also significantly improves the viability of the Aubrien Archers, which, whilst still not the most competitively-relevant army, is worth factoring in his point value imo. A small increase in his cost would better reflect his worth in both builds, whilst only being a small nerf to those armies overall.

Warden 816 85 → 80 points

Evisceraxe special attack, base attack of 3 at 7 range and 6 defence are all nice, but I feel that the Warden's survivability is too low for him to be worth 85 points, especially considering that the stronger ranged units that do well against the Warden in the endgame (e.g. Kaemon, B11s etc.) are the same things that do well against guard builds in general. He’s not a bad cheerleader by any means but he’s not super great either.


There were a couple of other changes I considered suggesting (I think the Granites may be too expensive even at 90 and I'm not convinced that Spartacus is still worth 200 points), but I'd need to do some more test games to properly back those nominations up.

~ Grey Waves, hoping this sparks discussion on other units’ point values too
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Old August 25th, 2021, 04:58 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Out of curiosity, I was looking for why the Marvel heroes weren't included and read that they add too much complexity to the overall calculations and not many people used them when referring to this system. Is that the general consensus?
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Old August 25th, 2021, 05:14 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by randum View Post
Out of curiosity, I was looking for why the Marvel heroes weren't included and read that they add too much complexity to the overall calculations and not many people used them when referring to this system. Is that the general consensus?
I'd say 2 main things:
1) Very few tournaments allow Marvel figs
2) Captain America raises the value of certain other units (more than most marvel does)

That combo means inclusion of marvel would change other units points in a way that most tournaments wouldn't use, hurting the points for most tournaments without much gain.
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Old August 27th, 2021, 03:55 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Thank you for providing this! I'm looking forward to trying it out.

I noticed that Pelloth's original cost is listed at 110, should be 100.
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Old September 2nd, 2021, 11:43 AM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Hi Everyone, I am no longer active in the community. But stick my head out of my cave every year or so to see what is happening...

I am really chuffed to see that this idea is being embraced. I started work on a similar system back in 2010.

https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...=adjusted+unit

So glad to see it being used by the current community!

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Old September 9th, 2021, 07:13 PM
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Re: Delta: latest updates and discussion

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape View Post
I quite liked this format at ScapeCon...though I discovered that 40pt Roman Archers are just as bad as 55pt Roman Archers
One of the big problems that I had when I started the format was that some squads and heroes were so bad that they wouldn't even be worth filler points over other options to fill starting spaces. Roman Archers are one of them.

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