The Pre-SoV Workshop

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Thank you Sir Heroscape! A little more flexible than my first idea, but more clearly expressed. Normal attacks are often preferable on height. Tsuto Kaijitsu is from Pathfinder's Rise of the Runelords.

NAME = YOICHI

SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = ARCHER
PERSONALITY = DISCIPLINED

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 7
ATTACK = 4
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = ???

Kyudo
Range 6, Attack 4.
If Yoichi did not move this turn, he may attack using Kyudo. Yoichi does not need clear line of sight to attack. Choose any figure within range and attack by rolling 1, 2, 3, or 4 attack dice. Yoichi may keep making special attacks until he has rolled all 4 attack dice. Yoichi may target the same or different figures with each attack.

[Astroking112]

I don't understand why Kyudo can shoot through obstacles. If it's meant to represent a trickshot around a tree or another smaller obstacle, then I don't think it's worth the weirdness of letting him shoot through solid stone into another room.

I like the change to mimic Q9's Special Attack to a degree; it feels cleaner and easier to understand than before. Given that it's his only ability, though, I do feel like it would be nice to remove the option to roll all 4 dice to provide more of a choice between his normal and Special Attack. The normal attack being better from height is a true point, but not one that will come into play often enough to make the unit feel engaging in my opinion. As it stands, I think it'd be a mostly linear choice of using the normal when you have height or had to move and the Special in almost every other case. One attack of 3 and 1 each (or just 2 and 2) is hardly tempting, though, so bumping the dice he begins with up to 5 could be justified if that route was taken.

What point range were you thinking of for the design? If he's intended to be affordable as a filler in the range of the cowboys, than that changes the context for his abilities.

Something important to keep in mind is that using a Queglix Guns-like ability is necessarily going to evoke Q9, Moriko, and the Quorik Warwitch. If you want to go this route, you need to be able to answer why he's distinct from those and worthy of being added to the canon when they all already exist. It's not something insurmountable, but it's important nonetheless.

[Scytale]

The high stats fell unnecessary, pretty much across the board. Decent Life and abnormally high Defense for an archer, combined with a nasty 4 Attack at range 7. This guy feels overly strong for the sculpt, and wouldn't really have much of a place in the game with others like Syvarris and Kaemon Awa around.

The spreading-dice version of Kyudo is uninteresting. How often do you not do the maximum 3 dice for Queglix Gun? Only when facing Kravs or Vipers, pretty much. Same here--all four dice at once will almost always be better. Something more like Erevan's Fire Blast would be more interesting, but that unit goes to show how well-used a unit like that is.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Internal comments in red.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

I don't understand why Kyudo can shoot through obstacles. If it's meant to represent a trickshot around a tree or another smaller obstacle, then I don't think it's worth the weirdness of letting him shoot through solid stone into another room.

Rather, it's over obstacles, using chi (an internal, spiritual power). "He shoots an arrow into the air" and does know where it lands.

I like the change to mimic Q9's Special Attack to a degree; it feels cleaner and easier to understand than before. Given that it's his only ability, though, I do feel like it would be nice to remove the option to roll all 4 dice to provide more of a choice between his normal and Special Attack. The normal attack being better from height is a true point, but not one that will come into play often enough to make the unit feel engaging in my opinion. As it stands, I think it'd be a mostly linear choice of using the normal when you have height or had to move and the Special in almost every other case. One attack of 3 and 1 each (or just 2 and 2) is hardly tempting, though, so bumping the dice he begins with up to 5 could be justified if that route was taken.

Or reducing Kyudo's number of dice.

Kyudo
Range 6, Attack 3.
If Yoichi did not move this turn, he may attack using Kyudo. Yoichi does not need clear line of sight to attack. Choose any figure within range and attack by rolling 1, 2, or 3 attack dice. Yoichi may keep making special attacks until he has rolled all 3 attack dice. Yoichi may target the same or different figures with each attack.

What point range were you thinking of for the design? If he's intended to be affordable as a filler in the range of the cowboys, than that changes the context for his abilities.

With fewer attack dice in general, I'm guessing he's around 100 points.

Something important to keep in mind is that using a Queglix Guns-like ability is necessarily going to evoke Q9, Moriko, and the Quorik Warwitch. If you want to go this route, you need to be able to answer why he's distinct from those and worthy of being added to the canon when they all already exist. It's not something insurmountable, but it's important nonetheless.

Moriko and the Quorik Warwitch are not ranged. Q9 needs clear LoS. Yoichi is clearly distinguishable.

So, reducing his attack dice, both Normal and Special, we have

NAME = YOICHI
SPECIES = HUMAN
UNIQUENESS = UNIQUE HERO
CLASS = ARCHER
PERSONALITY = DISCIPLINED

SIZE/HEIGHT = MEDIUM 5

LIFE = 4

MOVE = 5
RANGE = 7
ATTACK = 3
DEFENSE = 3
POINTS = 100

Kyudo
Range 6, Attack 3.
If Yoichi did not move this turn, he may attack using Kyudo. Yoichi does not need clear line of sight to attack. Choose any figure within range and attack by rolling 1, 2, or 3 attack dice. Yoichi may keep making special attacks until he has rolled all 3 attack dice. Yoichi may target the same or different figures with each attack.

Not certain I don't want to set Normal and Special Attacks to 4 dice. What would price be then?

[superfrog]

Do you have a customs thread, kolakoski? It seems like you're in the beginning stages of this design.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by superfrog

Do you have a customs thread, kolakoski? It seems like you're in the beginning stages of this design.

I may, but I thought this was the "beginning stages" thread for SoV.

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

I may, but I thought this was the "beginning stages" thread for SoV.

Well in some sense it is.

Generally this thread is for customs that somebody has worked on and is mostly happy with, so that they can get feedback as they continue to refine a custom for SoV submissions.

So yes, it's for customs that aren't yet ready for SoV submission, but it's also usually for customs that are relatively refined and tested.

[Astroking112]

I've noticed that the miniature has Elven ears. I want to see him as a historical unit (especially given how common generic fantasy units are), though, and another Elven archer isn't really a niche that I care to see expanded. Have you seen the figure in person, and if so, are the ears less noticeable than it seems online?

The Quorik Warwitch's Orb of Pain Special Attack is ranged, and starts with a comparatively lower number of dice than Q9 already. She feels distinct from Q9 because her Special Attack is essentially a weaker version of Queglix Guns already, on top of having Raptorian synergy and other parts to her design. Moriko, on the other hand, is very distinct for applying the same concept to melee attacks. All three feel different and like they have a reason for existing apart from each other. My point is that Yoichi needs to have a similar feeling, especially if this is the point of his design.

I still don't see why he can shoot through castle walls. Say, for example, that he is in an underground chamber completely sealed off from the surface. Why can he shoot through the terrain to a figure up above? Scenarios like this are what bothers me, and him knowing where the target is without needing to see them can't solve that. If that's the theme you're going for, then I think that a Lob component would make more sense, similar to the Airborne Elite or Jarek Guy, but without the ensuing explosion. Lacking any kind of clear line of sight restrictions at all implies a more magical kind of attack than a physical one, similar to how we've mostly seen that restriction dropped for psychic abilities.

Bringing Kyudo down to 3 dice and making him only allowed to roll 1, 2, or 3 has the same inherent problem as 4 dice and 1, 2, 3, or 4 dice. What is the benefit of not rolling the maximum number of dice all at once? There are very few times where an attack of 2 and an attack of 1 is preferable to a single attack of 3.

Originally Posted by Scytale

The spreading-dice version of Kyudo is uninteresting. How often do you not do the maximum 3 dice for Queglix Gun? Only when facing Kravs or Vipers, pretty much. Same here--all four dice at once will almost always be better. Something more like Erevan's Fire Blast would be more interesting, but that unit goes to show how well-used a unit like that is.

Ironically, Erevan Sunshadow came to my mind as well. He has a definitive reason to want to choose between each amount of attack dice (albeit it's still better more often to go for the maximum attack number). I'm unfamiliar with Kyudo, though, so I don't know how good of a fit that would be, and Erevan's design already has its fair share of problems.

Something more along those lines, that can make decisions based on how many attack dice you want to roll, would be much more interesting to use. As it stands, I still think that the current design looks too linear.

Originally Posted by kolakoski

Well met!

I may, but I thought this was the "beginning stages" thread for SoV.

Typically, this thread is for when a design has a more firm direction and needs some feedback to improve itself for a SoV submission. In the past, people have even run multiple tests on their own first, before bringing a design here. It's not a place to try and design a unit from the ground up for SoV.

I would encourage you to start your own thread, and would be willing to continue this discussion there if you're interested. At the very least, it also gives you a place to put designs that you think are cool but that might not be a good fit for SoV.

[Leaf_It]

They're just bit bigger than the Badru.




In certain mythos hellhounds are not visible unless your life is in peril. Veil of Moribund is a representation of this. If they are next to you, then you are in peril. If you are hurt, then you are in peril. If they are engaged, the figure they are engaged with, can tell everyone else, that the big dog is next to them.

[Maklar the Silver Prince]

I really like the theme that you've got going with these guys. It's got a great horror movie vibe. I'd be a bit curious if that's how they play out in-game though. Being able to see a bunch of invisible hellhounds on the battlefield means you can plan around them and then they're not so invisible, are they? Maybe a Retchets/Airborne Elite type power would better emulate the jumpscare, you're in danger, type of thing I think you're going for here? I'm not sure.

Is this a squad of 3? Or just 2? I can't tell. Drag is also a neat power, but it's definitely got some potential to be pretty powerful. Combining it with a fast, fairly beefy squad (that can't be hit from range!) looks like it'd need a significant bump in points, unless there's just two of them in a squad, in which case it looks about right. But definitely a neat combination of powers that give the theme of hellhounds. I would encourage you in playtesting to really try to get the design to where the hounds play in a manner that is accurate to the theme you've got here.

One other thing: I'm not entirely sure about the choice of unpainted clear minis here. I believe you designed the Specters of Aldorn, yeah? But I'm not sure about pulling that trick again, and although it's nice for you theme of invisible doggos, they're not invisible all the time, right, so this seems like a bit more of a stretch.

[Astroking112]

Are the Hounds of Perdition a 2 figure squad? The stats/cost and miniature pictures imply so to me, but I'd like to make sure.

Drag feels wordy to me. I believe that in the past you've mentioned that you don't like a reverse Carry that drops the requirement to place the target on a previously traversed space, but I find it to be worth mentioning again. It's not a deal-breaker for me personally, though (I see benefits from both the simpler route and this more complex but visually evocative one).

I don't like the species. Hellhound isn't something that I think the original design team would've accepted, and although the average age of players is likely now significantly higher than it used to be, it still feels a touch too far to me.

On a potentially related note, whilst I really like the theme for the Veil of Moribund, it doesn't quite make the invisible sculpts gel to me. They instantly look like ghostly dogs, which makes the idea of them actually being tangible feel strange initially, especially when one isn't aware of the mythos.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince

Is this a squad of 3? Or just 2? I can't tell. Drag is also a neat power, but it's definitely got some potential to be pretty powerful. Combining it with a fast, fairly beefy squad (that can't be hit from range!) looks like it'd need a significant bump in points, unless there's just two of them in a squad, in which case it looks about right. But definitely a neat combination of powers that give the theme of hellhounds. I would encourage you in playtesting to really try to get the design to where the hounds play in a manner that is accurate to the theme you've got here.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Are the Hounds of Perdition a 2 figure squad? The stats/cost and miniature pictures imply so to me, but I'd like to make sure.

Yes it is a squad of 2.

Originally Posted by Maklar the Silver Prince

I really like the theme that you've got going with these guys. It's got a great horror movie vibe. I'd be a bit curious if that's how they play out in-game though. Being able to see a bunch of invisible hellhounds on the battlefield means you can plan around them and then they're not so invisible, are they? Maybe a Retchets/Airborne Elite type power would better emulate the jumpscare, you're in danger, type of thing I think you're going for here? I'm not sure.

One other thing: I'm not entirely sure about the choice of unpainted clear minis here. I believe you designed the Specters of Aldorn, yeah? But I'm not sure about pulling that trick again, and although it's nice for you theme of invisible doggos, they're not invisible all the time, right, so this seems like a bit more of a stretch.

Yes, they can be played around, and encourage both players to make more nuanced choices about when and where to engage. They are invisible until engaged, as which point everything can see the engaged hound. I originally designed it to have no hitzones (unless the attacking figure had wounds) kind of like how the Varja has no hitzones, but can still be attacked when adjacent. This was however very hard on ranged armies, which are typically low defense. So I added the the engaged aspect to make them easier to attack. It will still prevent, or at least make harder, Startzone bombing.

I did design the Specter of Aldorn. Based on the recently announced Twig Blight alternate figure that the C3V is using, there is a precedent for unpainted figures (and even 3D printed figures) so long as they only need a single coat of paint. There's also precedent for unpainted transparent figures with the Banshees of Durgeth Swamp, which use unpainted reaper figures. Now those are green tinted, so there's an argument to be made, that they are already at least colored. For these hounds, if painting is going to be a requirement, I would use a red/brown color mix wash to give them a hellhound-esque appearance, but still be partially transparent. If necessary I'll even make a tutorial on how to make said wash, and apply it to the figures.

As far as a jumpscare aspect goes, to emulate the Retchets, or the Airborne elite, they would require a mechanism where you would roll to see if they get to play, or an entirely different unit (like Iskra) to summon them. I think that designing a common squad that is summoned would be an interesting direction, and one that I've been considering for a different design idea I have in the works, but it is not something that I want for this design.

Originally Posted by Astroking112

Drag feels wordy to me. I believe that in the past you've mentioned that you don't like a reverse Carry that drops the requirement to place the target on a previously traversed space, but I find it to be worth mentioning again. It's not a deal-breaker for me personally, though (I see benefits from both the simpler route and this more complex but visually evocative one).

I don't like the species. Hellhound isn't something that I think the original design team would've accepted, and although the average age of players is likely now significantly higher than it used to be, it still feels a touch too far to me.

On a potentially related note, whilst I really like the theme for the Veil of Moribund, it doesn't quite make the invisible sculpts gel to me. They instantly look like ghostly dogs, which makes the idea of them actually being tangible feel strange initially, especially when one isn't aware of the mythos.

Drag could probably be improved in it's wordiness, but so long as it functions the same, I'm not too concerned at the moment. Drag does have the requirement to place the figure on a previously traversed space. I like that requirement in this case, because it adds to theme of them being dragged behind the hounds.

I am open to suggestions for a different species than Hellhound, so long as still implies something like a demon dog. Maybe even something as simple as "Beast", but that feels a little too generic.

The theme for the Veil of Moribund, (moribund means near death by the way) I would include the information about being invisible until you are in danger, in the bio.