VCheese Cookie Cutter Armies

[vegietarian18]

The other half of the power rankings thread is the “Cookie Cutter Armies” tier list. This is based on Jexik’s classic Cookie Cutter Armies thread, from 2010, which I read as a young Heroscaper and learned a lot from. The hope is that people who don’t know a lot about the VC meta but know about Heroscape could read this article and have the knowledge they need to compete in a VC tournament.

I have put the armies in tiers. Within the tiers they’re ordered by how strong I think they are. Because these are fanned out relative to Jexik’s rankings, a tier 3 army can easily beat a tier 1 army, especially if they’re the kind of tier 3 that rolls the matchup randomness a little bit more. The tiers are based on the chances of winning a Cheese event, of winning multiple games.

Relative to 2010, I think we’ve honed our competitive spirit as a community, so these rankings are substantially fanned out relative to Jexik’s 2010 thread. There are many competent armies that don’t make the cut here, and that’s not a knock against them. There’s no moral failure for Tor-Kul-Na that he’ll struggle to win games against a majority of these armies. I think there is a reasonable chance that an army placed Tier 3 on this list could take home a VCheese championship even at the highest levels.

Tier 1- Armies that I would be unsurprised to see win a VC event. Armies that all builds should consider matchups against.
Tier 2- Armies that if piloted well would be an impressive but not entirely unsurprising VC tournament win. Armies that could eventually become Tier 1 with better build construction.
Tier 3- Armies that could just maybe be tier 2 under certain point totals and metagame composition. Possible to win an event with, but taking a lot more risk.

TIER 1

Quahon and Spiders
Key VC Cards: Quahon
Key counter VC cards: Nhah Scirh Cultists, Heracles

Quahon has unparalleled flexibility with her lightning chains, and raw firepower equal to Nilfheim. Unlike Nilfheim, Quahon can still get off her full damage even while engaged. Lightning Breath can also send damage into the enemy Raelin from up to 9 spaces away, which is a crucial tool because of Raelin’s prevalence. Spiders are bargain bin Greenscales that can fearlessly shoot forward to tie down enemies, and Entangling Web is a nice tool when you get desperate. Lightning Breath 3/4 or 4/4 skull rolls at the right time can cut the knees out of any army.

Matchups: This army has a special attack for Rats, and solid offense to keep up with melee bonding and Wait then Fire range. Pretty good matchup into Cathar. Melee bonding is its worst matchup, but I think it can both win or lose to any of these archetypes. The biggest problem is that all of your eggs must be in one blue dragon basket, and if you drop your eggs or if your opponent rolls a lot of skulls and shatters them you’re in trouble.

kevindola Online VCheese 1 (500 points)
Spiders x4, Quahon, Raelin, Marro Warriors, Marcu
5-0, first place

Viideosayg Scapecon VCheese 2022 (530 points)
Spiders x5, Quahon, Raelin, Marro Warriors, Isamu
6-0, first place

Rats
Key VC cards: Vulcanmech Incendiborgs
Key counter cards: Nhah Scirh Cultists, Heracles

Rats are still good. You build a wall with the Rats, and then you shoot over it with something. Hydra can reach over the Rat wall to shred melee bonding. Many people like to ride Q9 behind the screen and he's still probably the best but I think C3V’s Vulcanmechs are a great choice too, with higher offensive output than Q9 but slower and lower defense. Krav are another option, although scary to rely on because Q9’s Queglix can tear them up. You can even do something with Stingers or Q10 or Rygarn or Kaemon. Plenty of room for creativity, although most of the Rat builds stick to the 2010 classic.

Matchups: No truly bad matchups. Quahon and Nilfheim are not ideal but it’s not an unwinnable game. Very good matchups against both Wait then Fire squads. Melee bonding is good but not quite as good as Wait Then Fire, and Kuthnak backed Blades can be scary if you can’t get rid of Grimnak. VC has niche figures like Heracles and Nhah Scirh Cultists that counter Q9, but with Rats you can play around them if they show up. The downside is that Q9’s Queglix as largest offense isn't always enough to win games, so sometimes this build just doesn't have enough in the tank.

dok Gencon 2010 (500 points | 640 Day 2)
Raelin, Rats x3, Major Q9, Fen Hydra (add Rats x1 and Krav Day 2)
9-0, first place

vegie dad VCheese 2 (520 points)
Raelin, Rats x4, Krav, Vulcanmech Incendiborgs, Marcu
2-1, Top 4

Chris Perkins VCheese 3 (475 points)
Rats x4, Raelin, Major Q9, Marro Warriors
2-1, Top 4

dok VCheese 1 (500 points)
Raelin, Rats x3, Major Q9, Fen Hydra
0-1, first round loss

Wait Then Fire
Key VC Cards: Morgan’s Riflemen

They are always waiting. They are sort of boring to play, so they get less play than they should, but they're good. Boromir96 and BodaciousBlood have each had strong showings with 10th and 4th respectively. 10th have Heracles as a nice pairing, to help them in their worst matchups, while 4th have Morgan’s Riflemen as a new Valiant cleanup filler.

Matchups: Both 4th and 10th really struggle against Q9, but 10th can pack an extra tool like Eltahale or Heracles or Hydra to give themselves a chance. 10th beats melee bonding more than 4th, but that's a meaningful improvement since maps have become more melee friendly. Both have okay chances into Quahon and Cathar, but 4th are better into both of those because they can spread out, unless 10th are running a specific counter to either.

Boromir96 Scapecon VCheese 2022 (530 points)
10th Regiment x4, Eltahale, Raelin, Isamu
3-2, Top 4

Boromir96 VCheese 1 (500 points)
10th Regiment x4, Hydra, Raelin
3-1, Top 4

BodaciousBlood VCheese 2 (520 points)
4th Mass x5, Sgt. Drake RotV, Morgan’s Riflemen
3-1, Top 4

BodaciousBlood Scapecon VCheese 2022 (530 points)
4th Mass x5, Alastair MacDirk, Morgan’s Riflemen
4-2, Top 4

Whirlwind Orcs
Key VC Cards: Kuthnak

Kuthnak’s Boiling Blood turns orc squaddies into area of effect bombs, which allows Blade Gruts and Deathchasers to compete at the highest levels of the meta like they never could before. Kuthnak Gruts play like ranged builds, in that they can turtle in Raelin’s aura and push out threatening offense, but they also can play like melee bonding because Kuthnak is only a 70 point investment. These are still melee bonding builds at the end of the day, but Kuthnak gives them a lot more options.

Matchups: Both Deathchasers and Blades are fine into dragons, okay into 4th Mass, and bad into 10th Regiment. Heavies and Blades are okay against Rats and melee bonding. Deathchasers are a bit better into melee bonding and dragons, but much worse into Rats because they don’t have disengage or Grimnak. Neither likes to see Cathar, but Deathchasers are high variance so they have a better shot at it.

infectedsloth Online VCheese 3 (475 points)
Blade Gruts x5, Raelin, Nerak, Grimnak
3-1, second place

Sir Heroscape Scapecon VCheese 2022 (530 points)
Kuthnak, Deathchasers x6, MBS, Nerak, Marcu
3-2, Top 6

ISB3 Scapecon VCheese 2023 (530 points)
Kuthnak, Deathchasers x5, Raelin, MBS, Nerak
3-2, Top 6

Cathar
Key VC Cards: Cathar Spearmen

I think we’re still searching for the perfect Cathar build, but we know they're good. The best combination found so far is Krav and Hydra. Cathar are kind of a screen, and kind of a competent offensive force. Either way you play them, Braced Spear is brutal for melee, and a four man four defense semi-range squad is pretty good.

Matchups: Cathar traditionally struggle against dragons, but at higher point totals, they can sneak in Heracles or Hydra as a dragon assassin. They have a strange matchup with Rats, because Rats don’t want to take Spears and Cathar don’t want to engage or Scatter Rats, and those games often come down to the other parts of the armies. They are very good against melee bonding, Kuthnak or otherwise. They are okay into Wait then Fire, but their slow speed can be a big handicap.

Major Q23 Scapecon VCheese 2022 (530 points)
Cathar x3, Raelin, Krav, Fen Hydra
5-2, second place

TIER 2

Nilfheim and Greenscales

Nilfheim and Quahon are very similar dragons. Nilfheim can only go with Greenscales, but you can easily run Quahon here if you like her better. This build is quite similar to Spiders and Quahon, but with fewer bodies to protect the dragon with. Those bodies hit harder though. Nilfheim is also 4 defense which can be a boost in certain matchups and boards.

Matchups: Almost exactly the same as Quahon, but worse into Rats because Nilfheim can get tied down. Worse into Raelin because Nilfheim can’t touch her as safely. Maybe better into Stingers because Stingers outrange Quahon, but Stingers aren’t really a force in the metagame anymore. And maybe better into melee bonding on certain boards where you can really set up Nilfheim and get a ton out of the Greenscale offense.

Sir Heroscape VCheese 1 (500 points)
Greenscales x3, Nilfheim, Raelin, Marro Warriors
4-1, second place

XThorSavageX VCheese 1 (500 points)
Greenscales x3, Nilfheim, Raelin, Me-Burq-Sa
3-1, Top 4

Knights of Weston

Knights are the gold standard melee bonding squad. Many armies can't deal with the sheer number of base four defense figures they throw across the board with the help of Gilbert. Since winning VCheese 2 before the release of Kuthnak, Knights have not had a great showing in VCheese. Kuthnak and Chasers overtook their long-held position of best melee bonding squad in the melee v. melee matchup with its huge firepower. They still are good, but their role has changed a bit.

Matchups: A great chance into the Quahon matchup because of their strong movement and defense, but losing melee v. melee to Chasers hurts. They have uphill battles into Rats, and even more so Wait then Fire, and even moreso Cathar.

boromir96 VCheese 2 (520 points)
Knights of Weston x4, Raelin, Sir Gilbert, Marro Warriors
5-0, first place

Rygarn and Uniques
Key VC Cards: Rygarn, Brute Gruts

I’m the only one who runs this build so I’m allowed to put it wherever I want to. Rygarn and uniques is a toolbox army in the pure sense, with tons of different tools to compete in any game. Rygarn allows you to switch your order markers once per round to find the perfect tool. Brute Gruts are the magic of this army, because with Rygarn’s help you can emerge them at the perfect moment and melt through anything that gets too close to you with up to 8 attacks in a single turn. Other ranged uniques like Q9 and Marro Warriors are eternally good. If you want a build that has plenty of room for exploration and will be a challenge to play, this would be good.

Matchups: The closest comparison here is Q9 with Rats, and like that army it’s solid against everything. All of the matchups are winnable, but you don't have a lot of figures to work with, so if things start to go south in any of them you can be in trouble.

vegietarian18 VCheese 3 (475 points)
Rygarn, Raelin, Major Q9, Brute Gruts, Marro Warriors, Isamu
5-0, first place

Microcorp Troopers
Key VC Cards: Microcorp Troopers

A four-man ranged squad with a built in special attack. Laglor can push them to 8 range, which is really nice. The downside is that they don't have an easy way to reach three attack dice consistently, so they can get into situations where they really struggle to kill things if they fall behind and lose control of height.

Matchups: I don’t worry about Microcorp when I design VC armies, but I also don’t think they worry about much either. They can struggle to crack Q9, but that’s about it, and they can pack a Q9 killer if they’re worried about that. The problem is none of their matchups are great. They can lose to just about anything.

Dysole VCheese 3 (475 points)
Laglor, Raelin, Rats x3, Microcorp Troopersx2
2-1, Top 4

TIER 3

Orcs without Kuthnak
Key VC Cards: Pel the Hill Giant

You don’t need to play Kuthnak to have fun with Orcs, especially Heavies. Classic Orcs still work fine. They’re a worse than in classic Heroscape because of Cathar, but Grimnak is good. Chasers get the new figure Pel the Hill Giant, who’s pretty solid for his cost and can soak Cathar spears. They're obviously similar to Kuthnak Orcs but not as explosive and a little worse against range. A little better in certain very grindy value-oriented games where Kuthnak isn't doing much.

Glads and Blasts

They're still fine. They won the GenCon Main Event in 2008. But that was a while ago, and none of the armies that it faced are above this build on the list. Gladblast can pump a ton of dice from range, but it’s not really range, because the Glads have to be engaged. They can blow up dragons fast, if Gladiatrons can hold on for a turn, and they can do fine against melee bonding. Wait then Fire and Rats are tough but not unwinnable. Cathar is not great because Gladiatrons have to engage and take Braced Spears.

Mimring and Arrow Gruts

This army is totally made of Classic figures, but it uses traits of the C3V meta and modern army building techniques to build an army that looks crazy by 2010 standards. Swogless Arrows are played like Spiders or Nagrubs, running to the front lines to screen enemies, throwing out little attacks of 1 or 2 while they’re at it. Mimring fries from a safe distance in the back. The build matches up pretty well against Cathar and 10th Regiment, has a chance against Rats. It struggles against melee bonding and dragons.

Sheep VCheese 2 (520 points)
Arrow Gruts x5, Raelin, Mimring, Marro Warriors, Marcu
3-1, second place

Dwarves
Key VC Cards: Ulfrid Hornwrangler, Beorn Boltcutter

Dwarves are still good. There's some new options for them like Ulfrid Hornwrangler and Beorn Boltcutter, but Darrak is probably still the best. Dwarves are very matchup dependent into large/huge like Dragons or Q9, so typically something is paired with them that helps them compete against small or medium ranged common squads. They have a brutal matchup into Cathar that's really hard to help.

Stingers (and Havechs)
Key VC Cards: Havech Eradicators

Stingers are still good? Maybe? 3 attacks per turn with only 5 range is not great. They get overrun by melee bonding, can’t really handle Rats, and have a decidedly uphill battle against Wait then Fire or Microcorp Troopers. They do have a good chance against Dragons, because they’re hero killers. Superfrog has played Havech Eradicators in VCheese a couple times and won a few games, and they’re C3V’s more extreme Stingers. I think Stingers maybe have a home at a high level, but it’s probably in Rat builds, not pure Stingers.

Romans
Key Cards: Azurite Warlord

Romans still have the same problems they did 15 years ago. They have really good stats for their cost, so they can win the melee bonding vs. melee bonding matchup, at least into Knights. But they are really slow if they want to keep shield wall intact, so they struggle against range. Azurite Warlord is a nice tool to can-open a Q9 or Quahon, but they don’t have a way to get him or anyone around a good screen besides a brutal amount of LEAs. At lower point totals where they become more viable the 4th Mass also become viable, and that's a brutal counter to the Romans.

Nhah Scirh Cultists
Key VC Cards: Nhah Scirh Cultists

Sort of like playing the slot machines. Autoshields against specials and extra attack against dragons gives them good but not great matchups into Q9 and Quahon, but their high cost gives them pretty bad matchups into melee bonding and anything with range. You can pack Raelin and Krav or your own Q9 to smooth out the matchup into range, but there’s not really anything you can do about the melee bonding problem. Maybe there's a really great build to discover here, but for now they exist as a way to scare off Quahon and Q9 just a little bit.

OTHER PIECES

There are other cards that I think could be relevant to the VCheese meta in the future. These cards have not seen repeated VC tournament success and do not have a home in any particular build, but for completion sake I have them here. Some of them might never be viable in a VCheese event, some of them might be very strong now.

Asterios
Azazel the Kyrie Warrior
Braxas
Buccaneers of Tortuga
Mezzodemon Warmongers
Phantom Knights
The Varja

[vegietarian18]

Three years ago, I wrote the thread "10 Year Check: where is Bring the Cheese now?". And while many of the specific ideas I had about the meta were wrong, I think the exciting thing I was right about was that there was a lot more to learn about the VCheese metagame. That was written at the very beginning of the first VCheese event, and we're now into the fourth, with a ScapeCon VCheese as well. It's been really exciting to see the meta grow and stabilize, and this is what I think it's stabilized into. But of course there is room for debate, and room for new armies to grow.

[Foudzing]

I'd put Quahon Spiders in Tier 0, the results you put in are really speaking for themselves, it's the only build that consistently gets so good results.

Rygarn in tier 1, and both rats and Kuthnak in tier 2, knights in tier 3. Also not sure about Troopers in tier 2, maybe tier 3.
Still not sure about Kuthnak and Rygarn are those are very recent but that's how I would place them for now. Rygarn+Brute Gruts+ Raelin + Q9/Vulc is definitely a core that may compete with Quahon in the future.

Also Dwarves in tier 7, they are just bad in cheese environment to me, every king build gonna have huge screen abilities and Raelin, so not good machup to me, they are unfavored against other bonding melee and unfavored vs WTF. Cleon's idea was nice to bring Zelrig to mitigate dwarves weaknesses but then he couldn't afford Raelin and that hurts.
Same as Stingers, Havechs, Nnah Scirhs, Glads Blasts, Romans, those have such many terrible machups that it's almost a troll pick in VCheese environnement, you are basically rolling to get the good machups, imo they are not able to win a cheese tournament unless crazy luck in machup roulette or crazy luck in game when paired vs hard machups. They can be a superb pick in 4x400 style tournament but not in a tournament where you play all games with the same army.


The results from rats are just way too bad to justify tier1 imo. Even if they win VCheese#4, that's like their only good result in years, so they are a "not the best and most optimal but can win a cheese tournament" which is exactly what tier 2 is to me.

It depends a bit about point total also, Knights benefits from a low points total while Rygarn and Cathars benefits from a high points total.

[Sir Heroscape]

This is a great read and good analysis. I mostly agree on everything here...but would have to chew on it a bit more to see if anything didn't "sit right". But initially, I think this is very good.

[vegietarian18]

In response to Foudzing's post:

I don't think we majorly disagree on anything, but I'll explain my thought process.

Quahon and Spiders has two out of four VC wins, but it also gets played a ton. There are a lot of Quahon builds that fizzle out. I agree it's the best but I don't think it's clearly in a tier of its own. At least yet. If it wins VCheese 4 maybe it's another discussion.

Rygarn may be tier 1. I'm not factoring in VCheese 4 yet, which is the second time that army got a spin. And it did well again. It's a really unique army so it's hard to compare it.

I think Rats are fine. Their results are not that different from 4th Mass and 10th Reg. They deserve a tier 1 spot in my opinion.

I think Knights are better than Tier 3. They have a VCheese win. Kuthnak I could see falling, but I think Kuthnak Blades is really good at low point totals. Troopers I think are good too, they have a lot of decent matchups.

[Foudzing]

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

Quahon and Spiders has two out of four VC wins, but it also gets played a ton.

Well thing is, if it was not that strong, the fact it's played a lot would make her winrate go towards 50%, but even with high playrate Quahon+spiders maintains a ~75% winrate which is huuuuge.
To me that is one more reason for tier 0:
good playrate+ good winrate = very strong unit.
Whereas something with good winrate but with significantly lower winrate (4th Mass, Rygarn Q9) I agree it's not tier 0.

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

There are a lot of Quahon builds that fizzle out.

Who cares it's cheese, we only take in consideration the best quahon build which is undoutfully Quahon spiders Raelin.

Originally Posted by vegietarian18

I think Rats are fine. Their results are not that different from 4th Mass and 10th Reg. They deserve a tier 1 spot in my opinion.

The results are very different,
4th Mass is 70% winrate, Rats only 50% hte difference is immense.
10th are 56%, to me 10th aren't tier 1 either, they are clearly clearly under 4th, Q9 and of course Quahon.

to me, in case it wasn't clear:

Tier 0
Quahon spiders

Tier 1
Rygarn Q9
4th Mass

Tier 2
Cathars
10th
Nilf greenies
Rats

Tier 3
Kuthnak blades
Kuthnak DCoT
Troopers
KoW
Mimring Arrows
Heavies (no kuthnak)

Rest = not able to win a vcheese tournament in my opinion, or we haven't find the build.

In VCheese land, there is to me there is absolutely no reason to grant rats a tier 1 spot.
No good winrate, no deep tournament run, no superb machup vs a popular Tier1/Tier 0 build, nothing really.
Tier 2 yeah sure, Tier 1 I just don't undertsand, when Q9 went from rats to Rygarn as support his results skyrocketted.

[vegietarian18]

Rats have gone to two top 4s out of the four VCheese tournaments, at the time of writing. I think that's worth a Tier 1 spot. I'm not incorporating Online VCheese 4 yet, but that certainly is more positive signs for Q9 Rygarn and mildly negative signs for Q9 Rats.

Q9 Rats does have a really strong player playing it every single time in dok, and he's done just okay. Loss to Zettian Deathwings, win over Ants + Vulcanmechs, win over Buccaneers of Tortuga, loss to 4th Mass, win over Nilf + Marutuk, loss to Blades, win over Cathar, win over Deathchasers, loss to Quahon. Maybe those results are bad enough to indicate problems, but I'm also somewhat inclined to think it's small sample size.

I do think Rats are meaningfully worse in modern meta. Quahon is harder than Nilfheim, Microcorp Troopers are harder than WTF, Kuthnak makes Blades a tough matchup.

Rygarn is such an interesting comparison to Rats. I did not build the original Rygarn + Brutes army as a replacement to Rats, but that's what it feels like it is after some time has passed. Rygarn + Brutes and 4x Rats are the same price, and you'd never run both, so it makes for an interesting comparison. With Rats you get 16 four defense bodies, and commit 3-5 early nonoffensive OMs to build a wall to give Q9 more time. With Rygarn and Brute Gruts, you don't have to commit any early OMs, so you get more time to ping. Instead you flex a Brute Grut OM later to kill the squads that get close to Q9, while with Rats you just tie the squad figures down. Killing things is better than tying them down because then they're gone forever. Rygarn is also good because the OM flex can save Q9 and Marro Warriors from many of their worst moments, and allows them to make braver plays. All of that is good. But with Brute Gruts Rygarn you have much fewer bodies on the board than you get with 16 rats, so you have to kill enemies really fast or risk getting overwhelmed.

Ultimately my personal conclusion on Rygarn Brutes Q9 is it needs more data before anything more can really be said. It could be really good, even better than Quahon, but it also could be a gimmick army that people need to learn how to play against.

[Grey Waves]

The reason that rats haven't done that well in VCheese so far is because a) dok is the only person that's run them consistently and b) he's gotten very unlucky in 3/4 tournaments he's played in. We all know what happened in VCheese 1, no need to repeat that. In VCheese 2, dok lost vs Bodacious Blood's 4th even though he was heavily favoured to win on paper, thanks in part to some brutal late-game defence whiffs by Q9 and the hydra. In VCheese 3, dok lost to IS in a game that again, he should have easily won on paper. (If IS' Grimnak doesn't hit the chomp on Raelin on the 1 attempt it had, dok basically autowins the rest of that game; you could also argue that dok could have ignored grimnak, not taken the LEA and just remained on the high ground shooting the blade gruts). VCheese 4 was the first time that he lost vs an army that a) has an even or better matchup into Q9 rats and b) is not ridiculously niche (Zettians do well into big heroes but fall completely flat vs bread-and-butter commons). As such, I think it is premature to say that Q9 rats have fallen off and should no longer be considered a tier 1 army. There is little doubt in my mind that someone (most likely dok) is going to make a deep bracket run with that army sometime in the future.

Also, we're not even close to having enough data for raw win rates to be considered a useful measure of an armies' viability. Win rates are heavily affected by factors such as the skill and number of players who chose to bring a particular army, and they also don't give you any information about an armies' matchup spread (outside of a very general sense), or how close any of the games were. They lack context and detail, and until you get a very large number of games as a sample size, cannot be considered more than a very crude measure of viability.

I generally otherwise agree with Vegie's list besides a couple of specific things. Firstly, I think it’s a bit premature to call any of the Kuthnak builds a tier 1 army. The only really great performance they’ve had so far is IS’ VCheese 3 run. Neither of the kuthnak builds that made playoffs at Scapecon 2 managed to make top 4, and no kuthnak army even managed to place top 8 at the most recent VCheese event. Kuthnak builds also each have their own matchup issues - kuthnak chasers are terrible into all deathreaver builds, and while kuthnak blades does decent into Incendiborgs with rats, it hard loses to Q9 rats. Kuthnak blades also has a very questionable matchup into 10th regiment. While I agree that their results and otherwise solid matchups definitely make them a tier 2 army at minimum, I think that the Kuthnak builds need more time and more results before than can be considered a tier 1 army.

(As an aside, the reason I agree that WTF armies are tier 1 despite having an equally bad matchup into rats/Q9 as kuthnak builds is because WTF has much better results - top 4 in VCheese 1 and 2 and at Scapecon 2, and top 2 minimum in the current VCheese 4. Obviously Kuthnak is a much newer figure than 10th reg/4th mass and so has had less time to get results, but we’ll see how the next couple of VCheese tournaments play out. I don’t doubt that kuthnak orcs could be tier 1 some day.)

I also think it’s a little early to call Cathar tier 1 as well, but I don’t feel as strongly about that as I do for orcs. Their results are definitely a bit lacking so far, but they don’t have any truly terrible matchups, and their presence alone discourages people from running melee builds (particularly heavies). You could probably argue it either way. I do agree with keeping cultists as a tier 3 army - Cultists x5, Raelin, Marro Warriors has shades of Boromir’s winning VCheese 2 build. (It’s worse into melee bonding but significantly better into Quahon and Q9). I also agree with Rygarn and uniques being just at tier 2 for now - if it continues to get as good results as it’s been getting I could see it in tier 1, but the build’s relative newness means that tier 2 is fine for the time being. Agreed that it definitely needs further exploration.

~ Grey Waves, who is interested to see what others think

[Foudzing]

Well I don't think Q9 rats vs 4th is that much in Q9 favor (not "heavily favored", just sightly imo) we saw Q9 lose multiples times in this machup (even vs 10th which should be even more favored in theory) all it takes is like 2~3 bad defense whiffs and if you consistently get 4 attacks on Q9 it will happen eventually. That's how I planned to win vs Q9 with troopers.
They have a much better playable machup than Kuthnak Blades or any melee army reallly, where getting a single attack on Q9 will be a chore, beside with Grimnak heavies maybe.

The rise of Heracles may bring back rats, Heracles is a superb Rygarn Q9 counter he can basically solo the army. But imo Heracles is a super risky pick and only a good pick in high points / low figures ratio, where king's builds are very popular or where his 200 points cost is less of a problem.

Long story short I agree with you both rats still viable, but still think they are a bit under, because bad machups into the top 2 builds: Quahon, and Q9.

Also agree it's way too soon to really rank Kuthnak and Rygarn, Kuthnak was boasting a superb winrate and then boom 1-5 in vcheese 4, melee really didn't shine in vcheese4.
As weird as it seems Kuthnak seems better in lower points total when the destructive power of melee can fastly threw and army off and snowball from it.