How balanced are AotP units to classic 'scape?

[TREX]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

While Lash of Tentacles is very good, an army of Ruiner + Planeswalker lacks any blockers and so still gives an opposing melee army plenty of chances to get a first strike and whittle down the Ruiner before the game ends. I'm not convinced that the Ruiner is broken unless he is allowed to be mixed into a Heroscape army without a Planeswalker (which would be illegal by the rules I made for mixing the game, as well as several other peoples's rulesets).

I agree that the planeswalker points factored into the units they summon definitely keeps it more balanced. I think as it stands. The rules a couple of us got posted up awhile back cover most of the differences and is still a bit of fun without changing or remaking any cards.

[Sir Heroscape]

Hey guys, I'm back with another AotP vs. Heroscape matchup. This is a good quick battle...These are 600pt armies and I think the most valuable thing shown from this video is the power of summoning...and summoning in waves in order to progressively lock down the board, especially versus a range heavy army like mine. I was ill equipped to fight his army...but just like heroscape it sometimes just depends on the matchup...b/c if you take a look at the other playtests I've done...there have been very different results with other builds. So without further ado...here's the video!

YouTube

If I were to see that in a HS game I would want to know the person playing it had paid some kind of point penalty, because that's not a 150-point HS hero.

@Prometheus , may I refer you to my AotP vs. Heroscape videos...they've helped shed some light on the way HS plays with AotP. Specifically, watch the video I have below...I think you'll find the Eldrazi Ruiner to be a strong hero yes, but as shown, not terribly OP either.

YouTube

I think the Eldrazi Ruiner is only a little underpriced when you add in the Planeswalker. 500 points for 3-5 figures is a pretty light army and would not necessarily instastomp a competitive Heroscape army at the same point value.

@capsocrates I'd agree with you there. he's less of a scary figure when you've got a strong Heroscape army to handle big mean bullies like him. Instead of locking him down by surrounding him with squadies, just lock him down with a lesser hero or two, while you light him up from behind a screen. That, or just strong melee heroes will do the trick.

[chas]

Great video, as usual. The match ups seem to result in a wild variety of outcomes, as you said. Do you have Innistrad yet? It really opens up AOTP.

I'm going to combine the two games in a new way next month, which you can see here:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...=49667&page=36

(see Post # 425)

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by chas

Great video, as usual. The match ups seem to result in a wild variety of outcomes, as you said. Do you have Innistrad yet? It really opens up AOTP.

I'm going to combine the two games in a new way next month, which you can see here:

http://www.heroscapers.com/community...=49667&page=36

(see Post # 425)

Thank you and no I don't have Innistrad...or any AotP for that matter. @Tiranx has been the one to buy the AotP sets and so I've just bummed off of him when we do the videos.

That is a pretty cool idea you've got there with doing essentially 2 armies...one AotP and one HS.

[wriggz]

I have actually thinking about the factors that might make the points fairly balanced regardless of designers intent.

First off, consider mechanics. The design of the game limits number of Attack and Defense dice and wound percentages are the same. AotP rolls more attack dice more often, but I think if you drop commons out of Heroscape the average number of dice per attack or defense role is not that different. Also units will be moving around 5-7 spaces based on the size of boards. Range also varies between 5-7 for both games. This means that the Damage output, survivability and threat range per point should be consistent to the point scale for each game.

Second Army totals: Both games seem to try to stay with in a reasonable point total (400-600 for Heroscape, 500-700 for AotP). This means that the point scale will be similar for both, as in a 100 point unit is twice as good as a 50 point unit.

Obviously there are factors that can impact the difference including:
- Spells - may factor into the survivalbily and damage out put of planeswalker cost)
- Summoning - This is a tricky one. I'm not sure how much impact being able to summon a squad onto high ground and not move them into position matters, though I think it would be a lot of value. However it only takes place twice in normal games and may leave a squad off the table if the Planes walker is quickly destroyed.
- Heroscape "rougher" terrain - However as we have seen the move and range values of AotP is not very different so I doubt this would have a huge impact as long as the map was balanced
- Order Markers - not as bad as you would think. Other than the occasional missed turn due to a unit being destroyed or initiative switch where one player can score two turns, the number of turns over repeated games balances out. This would also work counter to the "First move advantage" that currently exists in AotP, which cannot be under estimated.

Other than summoning, I don't think the other differences really have a huge impact. So similar mechanics, point scale, and only slight (except Summoning) difference may actually lead to the games being in the same ball park in the same way C3G superheroes are despite them not specifically balancing against classic scape.

[Tiranx]

I just "accidentally" bought Innistrad, so we can probably do that in the next video.

[TREX]

Originally Posted by Tiranx

I just "accidentally" bought Innistrad, so we can probably do that in the next video.

I "accidentally" buy stuff all the time, just ask my wife. You'll be glad you did, its pretty sweet and adds quite a few new options for the game.

[GeneralRolando]

I just took part in an event themed around the planeswalkers. This is my first real experience with the Planeswalkers and at least to me it didn't go well. Players were aloud to bring two 600 point armies of Heroscape, Planeswalkers, or mixed. I brought one mixed and one classic scape. We played both take 2 and pick your poison formats. I got 3 games in. All of which were AotP or Mixed armies vs a classic army. All 3 times, the planeswalker STOMPED the Heroscape army. None of the Heroscape armies were built to be A+ or A armies but none of them were below B- based on the current power rankings.

We were discussing the results of the event afterward and some of the other guys felt that AotP armies are "Balanced" but they definitely fall into the A to A+ army category. Personally I think that the spell decks are significantly OP. Not every single spell necessarily just a few, namely red and white spells. The spells just aren't balanced for fighting heroscape armies. I sincerely think that VERY few heroscape armies stand a chance against Planeswalkers.

Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to play my Mixed army against another mixed or full AotP army so I didn't see any spell decks vs other spell decks in my games, but basically, I feel like if one player has a spell deck and the other doesn't, it's virtually an auto win.

Anyway, thought I would share that. I really want to be able to use planeswalkers in scape but as it stands I think it's going to be more involved than just jamming the two rulesets together.

[wriggz]

I think there is also a different metagame when you have a 300 point figure on the board and weather you treat a planes walker as a "Hero" or something else.

Braxas backed by Green Scales, Grimnak with Heavies (or even blades), and other instant kill figures go up in value. I could see a Wyvern/Spider build doing really well. The Drow Poison weapons become of greater use, not to mention Peloth's Special attack becomes a viable option. I bet legions of Vipers would also do reasonably well since anything over 2 attack dice is overkill.

Anything that is Cheep and plentiful I would imagine holding it's own, However hero heavy builds would suffer. With 600 points I could bring Venoc Warlord and 12 Squads of vipers (36 figures), Those vipers would soak up a lot of attacks and spells.


The Wyverns have a 6% chance of hitting 4 attack dice and severly wounding a planes walker, have the speed to get there and they can move the planeswalkers when flying. Spiders would be mostly a OM safety net and you could have 4 going in the same army.


Ne-Gok-Sa would be down right Terrifying if you allowed mind-shackle. Add 4 Squads of 10th, Marcus, Me-Burq-Sa and a squads of Romans, for order-marker management and you have a fairly reasonable hero killing force.


As the Heroscape player you need to play with the following assumptions:
1. I will NOT have board control. Might as well turtle (for 60 points I might even draft DED and take some pot shots)
2. There will attacks that devastate my heroes with +8 dice. So give my opponent lots of cheap targets.
3. I must kill the planes walker.

[Sir Heroscape]

@wriggz that post was on point. I am finding it's not so much the AotP units that tend to be OP...but rather the way we play against them that makes them seem OP. Against AotP your playstyle HAS to be nothing compared to Heroscape. I can't say it much better than you did, so I'll just echo by saying I agree with you on your statements. I think as we start getting to know AotP builds and units better we'll start figuring out how to use Heroscape more effectively. B/c truth is, the biggest advantage any player can have -either HEROSCAPE or AotP- is their opponent not being familiar with their units. And with AotP we're just not used to them yet.

With that said, I also think there's a big difference between 500pt armies and 600pt armies. 600pts gives AotP a lot more room to work with.

Agreed. Instawound and instakill units now have a huge role to play against AotP.

Funny you mention Pelloth and Wyvern...I used both those units in one of my AotP video playtests on here.

[GeneralRolando]

The big problem that I see is that by far the best counter planeswalkers is to use just a ton of auto wound. At that point you basically reduce the meta of the game to who can do all the auto wound the fastest by using Braxas, Wyrmlings, et al. Attack dice aren't viable because they can be blocked where a planeswalker is just gonna use as many auto hit spells as possible. Undefeatable no. Really really boring for the meta game, VERY YES. overall I think the shear unstoppable power of many of the PWs has a large negative effect on Heroscape as a whole.

[caps]

Originally Posted by GeneralRolando

We were discussing the results of the event afterward and some of the other guys felt that AotP armies are "Balanced" but they definitely fall into the A to A+ army category.

Originally Posted by GeneralRolando

Unfortunately I didn't get a chance to play my Mixed army against another mixed or full AotP army so I didn't see any spell decks vs other spell decks in my games, but basically, I feel like if one player has a spell deck and the other doesn't, it's virtually an auto win.

Nah.

Originally Posted by wriggz

I think there is also a different metagame when you have a 300 point figure on the board and weather you treat a planes walker as a "Hero" or something else.

Yeah. Planeswalkers are not unlike C3G heroes in that they have a lot of power, but they still melt in front of a mess of Stingers or 4th Mass.

Originally Posted by wriggz

Braxas backed by Green Scales, Grimnak with Heavies (or even blades), and other instant kill figures go up in value. I could see a Wyvern/Spider build doing really well. The Drow Poison weapons become of greater use, not to mention Peloth's Special attack becomes a viable option. I bet legions of Vipers would also do reasonably well since anything over 2 attack dice is overkill.

We played the Planeswalkers as NOT being heroes (and I firmly believe that's the right call), but they're not invincible. I think @dok 's mess of wyrmlings (+ some other stuff) is a good counter army to Planeswalkers.

Originally Posted by wriggz

Anything that is Cheep and plentiful I would imagine holding it's own, However hero heavy builds would suffer. With 600 points I could bring Venoc Warlord and 12 Squads of vipers (36 figures), Those vipers would soak up a lot of attacks and spells.

Venocs would probably do well. I would imagine stuff like Stingers, 4th Mass, Knights of Weston, etc. would give the best Planeswalkers armies a beating. The Sorin + Eldrazi Ruiner + Avacyn army I brought can dish out a lot of auto-wounds, but that's a lot less effective against a scattered army that can wear it down and (with range) attack it from multiple locations. I think the situation is not *that* different from when Firestorm came out. It's a tough thing to face for a melee army, but they can still do it by limiting engagements and playing smart.

Originally Posted by wriggz

As the Heroscape player you need to play with the following assumptions:
1. I will NOT have board control. Might as well turtle (for 60 points I might even draft DED and take some pot shots)
2. There will attacks that devastate my heroes with +8 dice. So give my opponent lots of cheap targets.
3. I must kill the planes walker.

I don't necessarily agree with assumption 1. I think you have to assume that your army will not have board control *unless* you can do it quickly (Death Chasers, Knights of Weston, Goblin Cutters, Phantom Knights, Heavy Gruts, etc.).

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

@wriggz that post was on point. I am finding it's not so much the AotP units that tend to be OP...but rather the way we play against them that makes them seem OP. Against AotP your playstyle HAS to be nothing compared to Heroscape. I can't say it much better than you did, so I'll just echo by saying I agree with you on your statements. I think as we start getting to know AotP builds and units better we'll start figuring out how to use Heroscape more effectively. B/c truth is, the biggest advantage any player can have -either HEROSCAPE or AotP- is their opponent not being familiar with their units. And with AotP we're just not used to them yet.

Yes, it's a very different meta, and it is going to take some time to adjust to it.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

With that said, I also think there's a big difference between 500pt armies and 600pt armies. 600pts gives AotP a lot more room to work with.

I agree here as well. I would say if you want to limit the Planeswalkers in a mixed event, go with less than 500 points, or if you go over 500 points, go with a high (or unlimited) figure limit.

Originally Posted by GeneralRolando

The big problem that I see is that by far the best counter planeswalkers is to use just a ton of auto wound. At that point you basically reduce the meta of the game to who can do all the auto wound the fastest by using Braxas, Wyrmlings, et al. Attack dice aren't viable because they can be blocked where a planeswalker is just gonna use as many auto hit spells as possible. Undefeatable no. Really really boring for the meta game, VERY YES. overall I think the shear unstoppable power of many of the PWs has a large negative effect on Heroscape as a whole.

I don't think auto-wound is the best counter to Planeswalkers. I think spreading the life points in your army across many figures and having many attacks is the best counter to Planeswalkers.