The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Curt]

[QUOTE=ThrasherDarkrai;2623152]How well does another double-spaced figure fit when placed directly in front of the Colossus, out of curiosity? And, on a similar note, what does the process for removing the blue energy effect around the Colossus' hammer entail? Is it attached directly to the hammer, or is it attached to the base?

Those are great questions. I pulled some figures of various sizes to demonstrate. I don't believe any double-based large will have a problem fitting alongside Colossus in the three problematic areas.

Dragons and Characters with body parts also protruding from their base will have some issues, but every unit can seemingly engage in one of the problem areas. Nifelheim and Charos were the most annoying and might require some fidgeting with the units. Here are some example pictures.

Sir DuPois, nestled under the arms. https://imgur.com/fr8zvoV
Wo-So-Ga - Engaged via one point. https://imgur.com/5hqPIxu
Wo-So-Ga - Getting a hug (it looks like Colossus is off his space a bit, but I double checked and you can make it work) https://imgur.com/9nL9MUY
Nifleheim - Only way you can fit in one of those three spaces. https://imgur.com/ADVtWLa
Grimnak- Can make points of contact with either space. https://imgur.com/6v49hT4 https://imgur.com/NZ1qXtu
Charos - Also annoying, but you can make it work like this. https://imgur.com/vvBM7yW
Bramcephys - Too tall to be a problem - https://imgur.com/467Llt9

So while it can come up during games, it really shouldn't be an issue unless you're trying to get a huge figure flush with him between the arms.

Regarding the blue shock effect, it's attached to the mini and not the base, but it is not part of the mold. I clipped one side and it slid off.

[Sir Heroscape]

@Curt

Such a freakin' cool mini! I think you're really close with the design, and I love what you're doing here...but you just need to clean up the powers just a bit. Here are my suggested edits. First with an explanation and then the exact implementation below.

Smash and Cleave SA - this dude is 180pts...make his attack options worth it and up the Attack dice to 4.

Warforged Rally - you must stipulate taking turns with those figures you control. I'm not sure you can actually use Tactical Switch without attacking. That is, the Tactical Switch power states that in order to activate the power you have to be attacking the figure. Now, you've kinda of indicated a workaround by saying they can't roll any attack dice during their attack...but in the Warforged power, it states you MUST attack that figure you switched with. I guess technically you could attack with 0 attack dice...but then you get into some weird edge cases with figures that have counterstrike or Scatter/Scurry...that is, can an attack of 0 activate those powers without rolling dice...? This particular power is a bit messy imo and only someone like @Scytale could really hash out if this interaction is even possible. It may just be better served to seek a simpler solution. I've proposed one below: simply...allow a full turn. Colossus is 180pts, so he needs to be worth it.

Tactical Strike 12 - I really like this as it forces the value of this power to come from good positioning/development of the Warforged and switching enemies into engagements with Colossus. It operates like Engagement Strike though...so you need the last clause to clean up issues of figures getting smacked by this power when they're already engaged with Colossus.

Colossus
Vydar
Unique Hero
Titan
Huge 10

Life - 5
Move - 5
Range - 1
Attack - 6
Defense - 5

SMASH AND CLEAVE SPECIAL ATTACK
Range 1, Attack 4.
When Colossus attacks with his Smash and Cleave Special Attack, he may attack one additional time.

WARFORGED RALLY
After taking a turn with Colossus, you may take a turn with 1 squad of Warforged Soldiers you control.

TACTICAL STRIKE 12
If an opponent's figure is moved adjacent to Colossus by a special power, roll the 20-sided die. If you roll a 12 or higher, the opponent's figure receives one wound. Figures may only be targeted as they move into engagement with Colossus.

[Curt]

First of all, congrats on Rujin, and good luck on Agrith-Naar, Shadow Wraith, and the Scorpions. I was somehow lucky enough to get ahold of the actual minis for Rujin and AN a few months ago and they are fun additions!

Thanks for the kind words and the very helpful feedback. I'll put my thoughts below, but your words do carry a lot of weight.

No disagreement at all on fixing the Tactical Strike language.

Regarding Smash and Cleave, I think this is something I could do some more testing on. Maybe trying him at 160 with 3 attack vs 180 with 4? I originally started at 3 because of the silly idea that 3 attack arm + 3 attack arm = 6 attack with both arms and it's just stayed that way. Maybe this is also an indicator that the points are too high at the moment.

Warforged Rally is obviously the big puzzle here, mostly because Tactical Switch is worded in such an unnecessary way for what it's trying to accomplish. I get your perspective as to why simplifying why be easier, but I do feel that the unit loses a lot of uniqueness by going straight bonding and there is a potential (under perfect circumstances albeit) where the player gets an absurd turn of 2 special attacks, 3 chances at Tactical Strike, and up to 3 normal attacks if the TS fails (this is still possible with the limited bonding, but much harder to set up). I think also you'd lose some interesting choices on the player's end as you'll almost always want to switch if possible to maximize the opportunity for wounds. But this could also be a possible points issue as well.

Regarding the language itself, I have experimented with a few different wordings, (even one as dumb as if the soldier moves and switches it is "no longer possible to attack") and it's been a struggle. I have had the counterstrike issue brought up, and my thoughts were that those abilities would trigger (under the current language) and it is on the Warforged player to decide whether they want to risk switching or not and activating the power on a failed tactical strike attempt.

The question of whether rolling no dice constitutes an attack is interesting. The only situation I can think of where an attack value can be 0 is when an Amberhive Protector attacks a Skull Demon, I would still think the AP can "attack" but there wouldn't be value in the attack so I'm sure this scenario has not come up. Obviously, there are situations where the defender rolls no dice during their defense (Zelrig SA against low-defense commons for example), but I recognize it's not a one-to-one comparison. As you said, I agree that input from Scytale would be very valuable.

I think this language change could clarify that an attack is happening, but granted that doesn't answer the question of whether this "attack" fulfills the attack requirement on Tactical Switch.

Any Warforged Soldiers that move during this turn and use their Tactical Switch special power do not roll attack dice when attacking, after switching spaces with the opponent's figure.

Anyway, I really appreciate the time you took to give feedback and I saw that you're on the list of attendees for Scape Summit, so I look forward to meeting you in person!

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

@Curt

Such a freakin' cool mini! I think you're really close with the design, and I love what you're doing here...but you just need to clean up the powers just a bit. Here are my suggested edits. First with an explanation and then the exact implementation below.

Smash and Cleave SA - this dude is 180pts...make his attack options worth it and up the Attack dice to 4.

Warforged Rally - you must stipulate taking turns with those figures you control. I'm not sure you can actually use Tactical Switch without attacking. That is, the Tactical Switch power states that in order to activate the power you have to be attacking the figure. Now, you've kinda of indicated a workaround by saying they can't roll any attack dice during their attack...but in the Warforged power, it states you MUST attack that figure you switched with. I guess technically you could attack with 0 attack dice...but then you get into some weird edge cases with figures that have counterstrike or Scatter/Scurry...that is, can an attack of 0 activate those powers without rolling dice...? This particular power is a bit messy imo and only someone like @Scytale could really hash out if this interaction is even possible. It may just be better served to seek a simpler solution. I've proposed one below: simply...allow a full turn. Colossus is 180pts, so he needs to be worth it.

Tactical Strike 12 - I really like this as it forces the value of this power to come from good positioning/development of the Warforged and switching enemies into engagements with Colossus. It operates like Engagement Strike though...so you need the last clause to clean up issues of figures getting smacked by this power when they're already engaged with Colossus.

[quozl]

If you feel like Smash and Cleave is too many attacks, you could change it up so it isn't a double attack. Maybe something like:

If you inflict any wounds with Smash and Cleave Special Attack, you may inflict 1 wound on an adjacent figure.

That makes it more like the Cleave special power too.

For Warforged Rally, I suggest not having them attack at 0 but subtract Attack dice instead. That way, other Warforged Soldiers can benefit. I also suggest skipping mentioning Tactical Switch.

WARFORGED RALLY
After taking a turn with Colossus, you may take a turn with 1 squad of Warforged Soldiers you control. Warforged Soldiers roll 3 less attack dice when taking a turn with Warforged Rally.

[Sherman Davies]

Originally Posted by Curt

I'll need to reach out to admin about photo uploading privileges...

If you sign up to be a Site Supporter, you can host pictures in this site's Gallery.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by Sherman Davies

If you sign up to be a Site Supporter, you can host pictures in this site's Gallery.

Good to know! I never even noticed the donate to support the site button on the homepage. So I’ll be good going forward, thanks!

[Curt]

Running the numbers, the probabilities for inflicting a wound is pretty close between two attacks of 4 vs an attack of 6 against 3 and 4 defense figures, so I think I’ll change it to 4 and see how I like it. But I like the suggestion and I’ll think it over.

Regarding Warforged Rally, I think you directed me to the answer. The Frostclaw Paladins Run ability is sort of what I want to accomplish (any number of Frostclaw Paladins can choose to run, but only the running figures get the attack reduction). I do want the subtraction of dice tied to Tactical Switch. The reasoning for this is so that the Warforged Soldiers can still be useful against non-switchable figures and give the player more choice in how to play.

So how about this for Warforged Rally?

After taking a turn with Colossus, you may take a turn with 1 squad of Warforged Soldiers you control. If a Warforged Soldier moves during this turn and uses its Tactical Switch special power, subtract 3 from that figure’s Attack Value this turn.

Thank you for taking time to give feedback! I really appreciate that veteran creators are giving this thought.

Originally Posted by quozl

If you feel like Smash and Cleave is too many attacks, you could change it up so it isn't a double attack. Maybe something like:

That makes it more like the Cleave special power too.

For Warforged Rally, I suggest not having them attack at 0 but subtract Attack dice instead. That way, other Warforged Soldiers can benefit. I also suggest skipping mentioning Tactical Switch.

[Blue Trails]

Wow, that's a cool unit and sculpt.

What is Colossus' Species?

I'd recommend changing the trigger for Warforged Rally from "After taking a turn with Colossus...", to "When revealing an Order Marker on Colossus, after taking Colossus' turn...". It's an inconsequential change at the moment, but it would help future-proof the design to avoid potential bonding chains that might someday occur if VC were to create a unit that bonds with Colossus.

[Curt]

Originally Posted by Blue Trails

Wow, that's a cool unit and sculpt.

What is Colossus' Species?

I'd recommend changing the trigger for Warforged Rally from "After taking a turn with Colossus...", to "When revealing an Order Marker on Colossus, after taking Colossus' turn...". It's an inconsequential change at the moment, but it would help future-proof the design to avoid potential bonding chains that might someday occur if VC were to create a unit that bonds with Colossus.

Oops, I missed that line. I’m just following D&D Lore in that it’s a Warforged, just a much earlier model so that’s why it’s much larger and doesn’t have Warforged Resolve. And you’re right that there is no harm in future proofing!

[Scytale]

quozl's solution is a good one. My first thought was "wounds inflicted by attacks by the Warforged Soldiers during this turn are ignored," which is similar, but thematically ugly.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by quozl

For Warforged Rally, I suggest not having them attack at 0 but subtract Attack dice instead. That way, other Warforged Soldiers can benefit. I also suggest skipping mentioning Tactical Switch.

This is a great suggestion!

[Curt]

Thank you all for the feedback. I think I know now how to simplify Warforged Rally while keeping the original intent intact. I'm going to revaluate the point total against other huge figures with bonding and check back in a week or so.