SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

[Lazy Orang]

ADMIN NOTE: The first ~30 posts of this thread were moved from the SoV Nominations thread.

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

Well, that's up to you.

As I said months ago, my own personal feeling is that suitable metal minis, provided the quality and price were acceptable, would be ok. And you seem to have found such a thing. For myself - and my vote doesn't matter now, but this is the same thing I said months ago - the minis themselves (because the quality and price are right) are not a problem. I'm not in the SoV, and I don't know whether it would be a problem for other people.

I glanced at the discussion in the pre-SoV thread, and it looked like a good direction. I wouldn't assume you'll get a no just because they're metal. I mean, there would be a discussion, but I don't know how it would end.

Honestly, it's SoV, I'd just assume you'd get a No... barely matters why. If you're in any way entering ground that hasn't been trod, they'll have a problem with it, and if you're entering well trod ground, they might deem that a problem too.
SoV is barely worth bothering with, IMO.

[Astroking112]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Honestly, it's SoV, I'd just assume you'd get a No... barely matters why. If you're in any way entering ground that hasn't been trod, they'll have a problem with it, and if you're entering well trod ground, they might deem that a problem too.
SoV is barely worth bothering with, IMO.

It's perfectly fine to not like the project, but I don't see what coming into its thread to insubstantively talk down on it out of nowhere is meant to achieve. If you have legitimate criticisms, there are far more constructive and respectful ways to voice them than trying to derail an unrelated conversation.

[SuperSamyon]

Hey folks, I just created a thread in this forum for feedback. Perhaps these discussions can be moved to that thread so that this thread isn't further derailed.

@sirheroscape just a friendly thought. Your response was a little harsh and combative to Rob. Since you're a member of C3V, remember that people will see you as speaking on behalf of the C3V and since there is a belief whether fair or not that the C3V is standoffish, I don't think that your response helps.

Keep in mind too that perception is just as important as reality for a custom project. It takes a lot of effort to bring a C3V Custom to the table so if a power feels wrong or too strong, it basically means the custom goes unplayed meaning you are essentially designing for yourself and not the community. Rob was referring to perception and casual play, not just tournaments and you should take his opinion seriously since he is a potential C3V customer.

I would add that since Heroscape is often played casually over tournament play, his criticism is valid.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

@sirheroscape just a friendly thought. Your response was a little harsh and combative to Rob. Since you're a member of C3V, remember that people will see you as speaking on behalf of the C3V and since there is a belief whether fair or not that the C3V is standoffish, I don't think that your response helps.

You are quite right. I've only just joined a couple days ago, so I'll have to get used to this now. Thank you for this.

[robbdaman]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

You are quite right. I've only just joined a couple days ago, so I'll have to get used to this now. Thank you for this.

Don't worry over it. Just keep in mind that I'm a C3V veteran myself so I do come at the subject with direct insight. Even if not working directly in C3V I have the benefit of being able to view it all and do input occasionally.

Overall we want what is best for the game to be not only competitive but fun and continually building despite being out of print. The local NHSD is being hosted by someone who built much of their collection after the game was cancelled. I'll be introducing them to a lot of C3V/SOV stuff they've never seen which I'm looking forward to.

[SuperSamyon]

In case folks are just joining the discussion, my thread was merged with this one so my post may seem confusing. But I'm glad this discussion is taking place! I would ask that the original intention of my thread be kept and this place be used as a constructive feedback area. Thank you!

[Kinseth]

I am not on the SOV side of the house, so I cannot speak for them, other than I am on the Art Team and I have produced several of the SOV cards.

As for C3V, I don't think people realize how much work goes into getting just one hero/squad developed. And there is no set time for pushing a card, each unit is unique and moves at the pace that unit needs to move in order for it to be at the quality that C3V wants when it is released.

I am really excited to see how many people are now involved in playtesting new units, that is super valuable to us in getting units out the door. And real changes happen from the feedback from public playtesters.

As for Power Creep - I actually feel like we don't have enough competitive units, But I also think that these rating systems are flawed and that C should be the average grade for a unit in rankings(Bell curve) and that the curve is actually too much into the B range.

[Pumpkin_King]

On the subject of power creep: at this point, the meta is so well known and we’re so familiar with the game we’d have to specifically design a unit to be sub-C. And, frankly, I don’t think that’s fun.

Is it really a good thing that Hatamato is so bad? Is it fun for the Marro cavalry to be almost unusable and boring on top of that? Why should we design units that just won’t see play?

[IAmBatman]

I think the subject of term limits is one of those things that works on paper in an ideal world but, absolutely no offense intended, is hopelessly naive in practice. And the reason is what Scytale laid out about SoV (but also pertains to C3V and C3G and HoSS and any other high level custom project out there):

These projects take an incredible amount of work and commitment and while folks absolutely burn out and take time off as the years pass, they don't tend to do so on any set schedule, and we do not (any of us) have such an embarrassment of riches in active and eager personnel that we can afford to shove anyone out early!

My experience, coming from C3G, but also having participated in some other groups over the years (including, notably, C3V) is that if you're passionate and excited about a project and you're willing to do heavy lifting (see: playtesting, art, etc.) and you're patient and dedicated enough, you absolutely will be put to work. You'll find a role and you'll be able to hold it so long as you're able to play nice with others and fulfill your obligations.

I see no deep well of people in the history of any of these projects who've worked hard to contribute to the project, participated actively and thoughtfully, and been stuck on the sidelines.

Term limits, while great in theory would result, in reality, in asking people to go and then having nobody to replace them. Why in the world would we want to do that?

[kolakoski]

Well met!

What is Heroscape? Is it the system of cards/powers/stats? Is it the Canon? Before C3V/SoV? Before D&D?

What is your purpose in creating a custom? To add to, or modify, the system? The Canon? Or to use the system as the basis for a different game?

[Pumpkin_King]

Yeah, the simple reality of the fanbase is just that term limits wouldn't work. There's a lot I think we as a community need to just face up to RE: state of the fanbase.

[SuperSamyon]

In regards to term limits and available staff, I can certainly sympathize with the challenge that can come with finding quality, volunteers. Especially in a game as old as Heroscape with a community as small as it is. Truly, I recognize that my suggestion for term limits is tied to growing the community. If the community grows, then more volunteers will be available.

I will add however, that there are still things that each project can do to turn things around and get more people engaged. Today if someone was interested in joining a team, how would they go about doing that? Is there an email list to email, phone number to call, or a point of contact to submit a resume to? Or is it currently setup so that "we'll call you, don't call us."

The danger with not having a clear path to involvement is that the perception and optics from the outside is that only those who are in the "in" crowd will get asked to join. In my opinion, this is why I believe others have mentioned projects being cliquish. Indeed, it is easy to see that perception taking hold if positions rarely open up and when they do they are filled before someone can announce their interest. While it may be an unfair and untrue position, combating bad optics is a challenge for all projects that involve the community.

I also believe that the community is bigger than we all believe. I've been analyzing some of the metrics for the recent vc releases and so far we hover around 200 downloads for each card. That is impressive since when you go to the books many of the newer ones are empty. We have quite a large silent majority.

So I believe the community is there, just not engaged. How do we engage them? One way is by providing a clear pathway to join their favorite project. @IAmBatman you guys do a great job of doing that over at the C3G. I think each project should strive to do the same. Term limits was just one possible pathway.