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#73
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
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#74
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
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Also, more units doesn't necessarily mean more diversity among the top. It is very possible that the inclusion of some VC units could actually reduce diversity at the top (I'm not saying with a definitive answer that it does, I'm saying that we don't have good data to say that it doesn't). What I do have is stats from X-Wing where there are two formats that may as well be official only and VC-inclusive, for analogy's sake. If I asked which was more diverse, it would seem intuitive for it to be the second one. The reality is that adding more options creates complicated, unpredictable effects and interactions; this caused the official-only format in X-Wing to be MUCH more diverse at the top end. For example, let's assume for a second that Marutuk ends up at around an A- (I haven't played him, but just play along with this assumption for a second). An A- unit is good, but not broken. Between him, Cathar, and 10th, I don't think you can viably run Heavies anymore. I also don't think you can run Greenscales Nilf anymore; they have enough trouble with consistency vs. the top end, and now you introduce a hard counter. That's enough to where I'm out on Greenscales Nilf. Perhaps he ends up being everywhere, so Q9 falls off. Now, 4th Mass are largely unchecked. Knights are still good in this meta. Stingers are really bad in this new meta as you just want quantity of attacks, and you're better off with Knights, Cathar, 4th, or 10th. So now you're left with a meta where you've gained one option (Cathar, as Marutuk just goes with established armies), whereas you've lost four (Heavies, Q9, Stingers, and Greenscales). Again, this is an assumption based on him being as good as I think he is (read: really good), but just the inclusion of this one unit could upend the entirety of the power structure and reduce diversity in competitive play by nearly half. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
Last edited by OEAO; November 20th, 2019 at 05:55 PM. Reason: For more on local vs competitive ie GenCon, check out the new episode of CoV releasing soon™️... |
#75
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
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And C3v does enough testing and aims so hard at b that I doubt it will change. |
#76
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
Interesting discussion. I'll try to check up and write a response, especially since my name was thrown out a bit.
I'll just say this one thing now. Aiming hard for b means jack when you end up landing at A or -A. Edit: I don't think it needs said that A ranked units effect the meta. |
#77
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
If you have something to say, just say it.
Last edited by superfrog; November 20th, 2019 at 08:24 PM. Reason: Aiming to be subtle means jack when you end up landing at blatant |
#78
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
I think Nathan just discovered this thread and wants to read the discussion that's happened before responding fully.
Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#79
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
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#80
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
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Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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#81
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
"They are too numerous to fight. What shall we do?" "Fight anyway." "You can never defeat another if you know not how to defeat yourself." my tradelist |
#82
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
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Sounds like it’s more an issue of defining the term “changing the metagame” than anything else. |
#83
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
I think I side with OEAO here in principle but with D_S in practice.
Creating new A units can be done in two ways:
If you do the second, it doesn't have much impact on the rest of the meta. New choices, as D_S said. If you do the first, it has a domino effect of sorts. I still think the domino effect can be rather small, and I think so far it has been. Knights and Heavies and Greenscales and Axegrinders and 4th and Stingers are all good still. |
#84
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Re: How will C3V units affect the Metagame?
Right, and I don't mean to say that it'll be exclusively through replacement. I'm sure that it's not the goal of VC to create A-level, meta-warping figures, but that doesn't mean it can't happen.
I don't think Heavies are A-level with Cathar and Marutuk in the meta. I think they drop to A-, which means they're too weak for double blind. Doesn't mean they're bad by any stretch of the imagination, but they're probably not good enough any more if your goal is to win tournaments. I think Greenscales are certainly too weak now; Marutuk should dumpster them in either the 10th or Cutters builds you can run. Before it comes up, saying there are alternate formats is not a good defense for having busted units. Many tournaments around the country still use double-blind, be it New England, Ohio, TTO, or GenCon. There are places that exclusively use alternate formats, but they're not a vast majority. Casters of Valhalla: THE Competitive HeroScape Podcast!
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