Soldiers of Valhalla - nominations and discussion

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

OK so if for you units like Dünd or the Sahuagin Raider are okay I understand you accept this... Most of people have reviewed themselves the cost or the power of Dund, because even in casual play he's really really bad.
I thought this sort of things will disapear with C3V and SoV, it was a mistake obviously.
Majority of us on the french forums don't play Arashara the right way because she's just incredibly bad if you don't have like 4 squads of Romans...
What the point of SoV or C3V if we are obliged to reviewed the card afterward...

You said variety is good, you're accepting the really bad units and don't accepting the good or very good unit.... Good unit are variety, even broken unit are, so why are you accepting the "unplayably bad" and not the "unplayably good"?

Don't mistaken, I don't want "unplayably good" units like Q9 or rats, but your speech is kind of illogic.

Cxurg'gyath is probably the worst (least cost-efficient) unit that the SoV will pass/the C3V will create. They have created A-range units (Ulfrid Hornwrangler, Vulcanmechs). He wasn't passed because he is necessarily competitive, but he helps an underused unit (MFMm) become an even more fun unit to play, and is nice to use casually. This guy will be used more than Dund, I might add, because he has synergy that encourages a specific (not necessarily tournament-worthy) army build.

Thank you and all of the French community for your interest in the future of 'Scape.

[Foudzing]

Okay you're admitting he's like Dünd or Runa, my work here is done.

I don't like Dünd but I like DW7000, of course everyone loves at least one really really bad unit, it's kind of compassion.

I'm not the kind of Heroscaper you think I am, like fighting everytime for the win, I like win of course but for example I never run an army like full Stinger, full 4th mass, mass knight, mass orcs or Q9+Rae+Rats at a tournament (in fact in France and Belgium no-one do this).
I love home-made scenarios and somle of Hasbro scenarios, but this not what I would use to balance an unit....

No one explained me why he costs so much and no one give me an example of a 140 points (or more) hero which is worst than him.

If you're accepting units which are as cost efficient as Dünd (or even less) I don't really see the point to make that number of test.

Thank you for all the answers! Have fun with scape!

And take care, the new Kheris is coming soon...

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

You said variety is good, you're accepting the really bad units and don't accepting the good or very good unit.... Good unit are variety, even broken unit are, so why are you accepting the "unplayably bad" and not the "unplayably good"?

There's a simple reason for being more willing to pass very bad units than very good ones: the metagame. If we pass a unit that crushes everything else, either Fanscape-allowed tournaments will become dominated by that unit, or tournament directors will decide not to allow at least that one unit. Either way, it would be a devastating blow to the integrity of this project. A bad unit will simply go unplayed.

As for Cxurgy, he is not unplayably bad. If I felt he was so I would have voted against him (as I'm about to do for another unit, actually). He will never win any standard tournaments, but he's still worth playing from time to time in casual games. He's not a dust collector.

As for accepting tournament-capable units, someone privately noted my vote against the Greenspawn Assassin. To be clear, I did not vote against it because of its point cost, nor would I pass it if its point cost were adjusted. I voted against it because of its versatility; it's a unit I feel is too capable in too many roles. That level versatility has a place with higher-cost heroes like Nilfheim, I just don't think it's a good thing for a low-cost unit.

[Fi Skirata]

From seeing the current discussion taking place, I have to agree with G-O:

I know it isn't part of your charter, but in this case a at X points where X<140 would have been cool with almost everyone. I still like him and will give him a shot and appreciate the opportunity you have provided me in the hard work that you do. Thanks again.

I think that you judges should be able to change a figures point value (to a certain amount, as you shouldn't be bogged down by every figure). I don't think any creator would mind a 20 or less change in points as the only additional requirement for getting their unit passed into fanscape.
For example, C3V (and I know there is a difference between you, so bear with me) makes sure that every figure is as accurate as they can be so they meld as perfectly as possible with classic 'scape. Now C3V & SoV go hand-in-hand as far as being allowed in tournaments and such (depending on what the gamemaster allows) so shouldn't SoV be on par with C3V as far as making units as stable as possible?
Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the work you guys do. I also enjoy the niche figures and the fun, but not always tournament worthy, units. However, for these units to be considered 'official fanscape' then they should be able to be made balanced, not close to balanced.

On this note, I have had an idea rolling through my head. Seeing as you guys do have a lot of work and all, this might help lessen your load. What about using the same kind of idea as the C3G's Public Design program (with some tweaks). People still submit there units here, which after being passed by a couple judges (two or three) as sufficiently non-broken, they would then be passed to a list on a voting thread. There, every time a unit is finished the public would vote on which new unit, from the list, would get moved on in the process. If a unit passes, it would get it's own thread and the issues would be ironed out through public playtests, consisting of one initial and then two other playtests. If a unit requires any alterations, the two playtests would again be required until it is balanced. Then a vote from all of the SoV judges to pass into 'officialness'. The playtests themselves would be run by the members of this community.

I think this would solve the main problems of the Judges being bogged with work, the process being slow (which is no fault of the Judges, it's just their work-load is so high) and units not being as balanced.


I hope this does not come across as me speaking out of turn, as I am still rather 'young' as far as this community goes.

[superfrog]

I like the way the SoV works, I think your proposal crosses a little bit toward the C3V side of things. The SoV has approved some good units (ZI's) and have more that are coming (Sneakbeaks) and I think they should stay just the way they are.

(Then again, I'm even newer that Fi Skirata)

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Fi Skirata

What about using the same kind of idea as the C3G's Public Design program (with some tweaks). People still submit there units here, which after being passed by a couple judges (two or three) as sufficiently non-broken, they would then be passed to a list on a voting thread. There, every time a unit is finished the public would vote on which new unit, from the list, would get moved on in the process. If a unit passes, it would get it's own thread and the issues would be ironed out through public playtests, consisting of one initial and then two other playtests. If a unit requires any alterations, the two playtests would again be required until it is balanced.

This does exist, essentially, in a non-official form. It's the Custom Units & Army Cards Forum. People post units, get feedback, and should playtest the heck out of them before submitting them here. The concept of the SoV is not to refine units but act as the final judge; the refinement work is meant to be done beforehand. A more formal process for refinement would be helpful in getting more units through the system, perhaps, but that really slips into C3V territory. If anything such a procedure should be developed outside of the SoV to help creators get their creations approved.

[awesomeunleashed]

Originally Posted by Scytale

As for accepting tournament-capable units, someone privately noted my vote against the Greenspawn Assassin. To be clear, I did not vote against it because of its point cost, nor would I pass it if its point cost were adjusted. I voted against it because of its versatility; it's a unit I feel is too capable in too many roles. That level versatility has a place with higher-cost heroes like Nilfheim, I just don't think it's a good thing for a low-cost unit.

If the other judges agree with you, and the Assassin is denied, we may make some slight revision and re-submit. However, I'd like to make sure I understand you. When you say "too capable in too many roles," I assume you are more concerned with the "too capable" part; you wouldn't mind a (hypothetical) unit like the Marro Warriors that is good (but not great) in most situations, correct?

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by awesomeunleashed

If the other judges agree with you, and the Assassin is denied, we may make some slight revision and re-submit. However, I'd like to make sure I understand you. When you say "too capable in too many roles," I assume you are more concerned with the "too capable" part; you wouldn't mind a (hypothetical) unit like the Marro Warriors that is good (but not great) in most situations, correct?

Yeah, certainly. Even great in numerous roles is fine. With the Greenspawns I felt like they could do pretty much anything effectively, assaulting, screening, holding glyphs, whatever. So yeah, it's the "too capable" part.

I wouldn't be surprised if my fellow judges voted differently on the GA; my issue with the little green fellow may be in the minority. If so I'll bow to their wisdom. I myself found them to be a fun, interesting unit, and only after numerous games did I begin to develop concerns. I really liked them, and would like to see them succeed, if not in their current form then slightly revised.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

And take care, the new Kheris is coming soon...

Originally Posted by Fi Skirata

From seeing the current discussion taking place, I have to agree with G-O:

I think that you judges should be able to change a figures point value (to a certain amount, as you shouldn't be bogged down by every figure). I don't think any creator would mind a 20 or less change in points as the only additional requirement for getting their unit passed into fanscape.
For example, C3V (and I know there is a difference between you, so bear with me) makes sure that every figure is as accurate as they can be so they meld as perfectly as possible with classic 'scape. Now C3V & SoV go hand-in-hand as far as being allowed in tournaments and such (depending on what the gamemaster allows) so shouldn't SoV be on par with C3V as far as making units as stable as possible?
Don't get me wrong, I greatly appreciate the work you guys do. I also enjoy the niche figures and the fun, but not always tournament worthy, units. However, for these units to be considered 'official fanscape' then they should be able to be made balanced, not close to balanced.

On this note, I have had an idea rolling through my head. Seeing as you guys do have a lot of work and all, this might help lessen your load. What about using the same kind of idea as the C3G's Public Design program (with some tweaks). People still submit there units here, which after being passed by a couple judges (two or three) as sufficiently non-broken, they would then be passed to a list on a voting thread. There, every time a unit is finished the public would vote on which new unit, from the list, would get moved on in the process. If a unit passes, it would get it's own thread and the issues would be ironed out through public playtests, consisting of one initial and then two other playtests. If a unit requires any alterations, the two playtests would again be required until it is balanced. Then a vote from all of the SoV judges to pass into 'officialness'. The playtests themselves would be run by the members of this community.

I think this would solve the main problems of the Judges being bogged with work, the process being slow (which is no fault of the Judges, it's just their work-load is so high) and units not being as balanced.

I hope this does not come across as me speaking out of turn, as I am still rather 'young' as far as this community goes.

I think the C3V, not the SoV, should look into something vaguely like this. OR some people in the customs community should get together and create a thread for this purpose. I nearly did a few months ago when I was first getting my feet wet with customs.

Originally Posted by Scytale

This does exist, essentially, in a non-official form. It's the Custom Units & Army Cards Forum. People post units, get feedback, and should playtest the heck out of them before submitting them here. The concept of the SoV is not to refine units but act as the final judge; the refinement work is meant to be done beforehand. A more formal process for refinement would be helpful in getting more units through the system, perhaps, but that really slips into C3V territory. If anything such a procedure should be developed outside of the SoV to help creators get their creations approved.

Regarding the first part... it happens. I think some people (myself included) would like to see it happen a little more, but that's up to the individual, really.

As for the second part, I agree.

[Tiranx]

Originally Posted by Foudzing

Okay you're admitting he's like Dünd or Runa, my work here is done.

I don't like Dünd but I like DW7000, of course everyone loves at least one really really bad unit, it's kind of compassion.

I'm not the kind of Heroscaper you think I am, like fighting everytime for the win, I like win of course but for example I never run an army like full Stinger, full 4th mass, mass knight, mass orcs or Q9+Rae+Rats at a tournament (in fact in France and Belgium no-one do this).
I love home-made scenarios and somle of Hasbro scenarios, but this not what I would use to balance an unit....

No one explained me why he costs so much and no one give me an example of a 140 points (or more) hero which is worst than him.

If you're accepting units which are as cost efficient as Dünd (or even less) I don't really see the point to make that number of test.

Thank you for all the answers! Have fun with scape!

And take care, the new Kheris is coming soon...

Foudzing,

You are forgetting one very important 140 point figure, Deathwalker 9000. 9000 started out with a nice synergy in the Zettian Guards right out of the first master set box. Unfortunately with only 1 life, he was horrible. 7 waves later, Warden 816 came into the picture and made that synergy even better. They were still pretty bad though. Then along comes the SoV and thanks to dok we now have the Zettian Infantry that are really starting to make these guys competitive. The Zettian Guards, Warden 816, and now the Zettian Infantry are all relatively cheap. Why? Mainly because the brunt of the price tag is on Deathwalker 9000.

Sometimes a figure is overpriced to offset another figure that will bond or synergize with it and offset the points. Look at the Ogre Warhulk, he is a 150 points and has the potential to hurt your own army. Nobody was really fond of him, until a extremely cheap squad of Death Chasers of Thesk came out and made his high point cost viable and useful.

So, after looking at Deathwalker 9000 and the Ogre Warhulk here is my point. You have Cxurgy who costs the same as Deathwalker 9000 and has a starting synergy with the Mind Flayer Mastermind. The only thing Cxurgy needs now is a figure to justify his high point cost. Possible solutions:

1. A very cheap figure with Enslave. Could be a 25 point Common Hero.
2. A squad of minions that serve/help Mindflayers. I know that Drow typically work with them. I think that Kobolds serve as slaves for them.
3. Any psychic figure could be made to work with them and possibly have something similar to the elves' 9 wizard psychic connection for bonding.

That is the best part of being in the era of fanscape that we are in. You can take a figure that has really struggled and help him/her/it out with a new custom unit. The number one thing that you guys really want to do with Cxurgy is modify him. That is not the job of the SoV. Their job is to approve figures that are creative, thematic, and work well with the existing canon of official 'scape and the ever growing number of fanscape.

So, all of you in the wonderful French forums that hate this guy can easily fix him by creating a new unit and submitting it to the SoV.

On a side note, your French forum really makes me wish I knew French instead of Spanish. I love how you guys post your tournament results. There is a lot there we could learn from. Apologies for a long rant,

Tiranx

[sixthflagbearer]

Originally Posted by Tiranx

On a side note, your French forum really makes me wish I knew French instead of Spanish.

You could always just get Chrome and translate it .

[Foudzing]

Tiranx,

lol Deathwalker 9000 is way better than this mindflayer master even without Zettian or ZI.
Of course you have to not be unlucky with the defense rolls, but otherwise it's a good unit. You just have to play it well and dodge high attacks. For example: Raelin+2xglads+2xBlast+DW9000 is a pretty good army and DW9000 is important in.

Here the army Mind Flayer+Crug'jlkjhj is not pretty but moreover Crug'kjljh is not important in (etter to take Ornak).

Same thing with Ogre Warhulk, alone he's not very good, but he's at least "playable" whereas Crug'kjkj is not.

But I understand you, you're telling me that Crug'lkjlkh will need a buff like a Mind Flayer squad or something else to be good.
So you're telling that at the moment he is bad, this is why I wanted to hear, thank you.

What the point of testing if you're accepting units who will need a buff? WTF SoV?

If you want to know more about the french community, clik on the link on my signature, subscribe, create a thread and ask questions (in english), we'll be happy to answer you.
Or go to this section: http://forum.heroscape.free.fr/phpBB...forum.php?f=11 if you want to know how are our tournaments.

Results of the last tournament (lots of C3V units were played in!!): http://forum.heroscape.free.fr/phpBB...pic.php?t=4033

Thank you for your interest.