Battlefields of Valhalla Discussion Thread

[Dad_Scaper]

Oh. That explains it.

Anyway. Volunteers, for the most part, don't last forever. This kind of turnover is normal for a volunteer project. The question is "what now."

[bmon]

I love what the BoV has done. And to echo others here, would love to see it still active.

[Sir Heroscape]

Agreed, "I would see the glory of [the BoV] restored!"

[happyjosiah]

How about now?

[TREX]

I don't see why this cant get back up and running. There is definitely interest in seeing new tournament maps.

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by TREX

I don't see why this cant get back up and running. There is definitely interest in seeing new tournament maps.

The only thing standing in the way of getting this going again is the process that the BoV embodies. It's not simply a collection of people submitting playtest results of a play they had on a map. Every judge needs to have a solid understanding of tournament Heroscape and (more importantly) the means to play tournament style games consistently and frequently.

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to fill these requirements. Often, people are able to join the BoV and have an initial frenzy of activity. But it is very difficult to sustain. I consider myself lucky (and an extreme outlier) to have been able to play tournament type Heroscape games every Thursday for the last decade against a top tier player. Even with my unusual situation, the grind of testing can be difficult to sustain.

We've noticed the gradual decline of this process over the years I've been involved. At first the pool of candidates was large and judges were extremely eager to join the ranks. As time has worn on, judges have had shorter and shorter stays with diminishing participation.

Realistically, I don't see the community supporting the process that is the BoV again. That's not to say that a process for evaluating tournament maps should be abandoned, but that this process might not be sustainable. IMO, we probably need to create a new project where the burdens of testing can be shared out among a larger group for overall review, instead of depending on a smaller group of people to devote a large amount of time for review.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Dignan

The only thing standing in the way of getting this going again is the process that the BoV embodies. It's not simply a collection of people submitting playtest results of a play they had on a map. Every judge needs to have a solid understanding of tournament Heroscape and (more importantly) the means to play tournament style games consistently and frequently.

Unfortunately, it's very difficult to fill these requirements. Often, people are able to join the BoV and have an initial frenzy of activity. But it is very difficult to sustain. I consider myself lucky (and an extreme outlier) to have been able to play tournament type Heroscape games every Thursday for the last decade against a top tier player. Even with my unusual situation, the grind of testing can be difficult to sustain.

We've noticed the gradual decline of this process over the years I've been involved. At first the pool of candidates was large and judges were extremely eager to join the ranks. As time has worn on, judges have had shorter and shorter stays with diminishing participation.

Realistically, I don't see the community supporting the process that is the BoV again. That's not to say that a process for evaluating tournament maps should be abandoned, but that this process might not be sustainable. IMO, we probably need to create a new project where the burdens of testing can be shared out among a larger group for overall review, instead of depending on a smaller group of people to devote a large amount of time for review.

So you would say the Wargrounds of Scape is not quite there since it still depends on a core set of judges, right?

[Dignan]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

So you would say the Wargrounds of Scape is not quite there since it still depends on a core set of judges, right?

Well, I really haven't been following WoS that closely. In taking a look over their thread, it seems that they have encountered a similar slow down. I don't know about there internal operations, but I wouldn't be surprised if they mirrored what is happening in the BoV.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Dignan

Well, I really haven't been following WoS that closely. In taking a look over their thread, it seems that they have encountered a similar slow down. I don't know about there internal operations, but I wouldn't be surprised if they mirrored what is happening in the BoV.

I'm not sure crowd-sourcing is the way forward either; I know C3V has had very little "crowd-source" input for quite a while (NOTE: if you're a C3V fan, go sign up to playtest!).

On the optimistic side, using online tournaments to test units is a promising way forward. I think that is what many of the WoS judges were actually doing, and I could see it as a potential future for map judging as well.

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by happyjosiah

Thanks for the research D_S! I agree with what you are saying. I think a PM from Dignan to each of the inactive judges, give them a week or two to respond, and then replace them, with the understanding that they will be given preference if they choose to be active again.

My guess would be that even if you GET a response, it would be "please replace me, I have no time for this".

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Agreed, "I would see the glory of [the BoV] restored!"

Originally Posted by TREX

I don't see why this cant get back up and running. There is definitely interest in seeing new tournament maps.

I do so hate to see enthusiasm squashed by inertia. Perhaps those folks who actually have the interest and energy could get together and discuss a plan for reviving the BoV. If that means taking over the reins from the BoV and the former members are amenable to that, that would be exciting. If that means founding a whole new group which carries on the tradition under a new name (and new policies), that could still be a viable option. Hell, anything is better than nothing at all happening, no?

My personal advice would be to start out with sending PMs, get a plan together, contact existing BoV members as necessary/appropriate, PM me if you need any admin support. Let's not see the enthusiasm fade! The newest BoV map in the Downloads area is dated February 2012. As a person who's responsible for organizing maps for our local annual tournament, I too would love to see something new in that arena. I think people need to be realistic and realize that it will take a lot of work, and dedication, and time, but that's no reason not to do something.

I anxiously await reactions from the above folks and other interested parties.


EDIT: I'm wrong: 2/2012 is Draugur; there appears to be one newer map, Dance of the Dryads, which is dated 4/2013. There appears to be some naming inconsistency in the BoV maps, which makes them more annoying to search for. Perhaps the top post should have a definitive list? I'll also work on consistencizing the names in the Downloads area.

(Although the fact that the newest map is only three and a half years old rather than four and a half does not seem to diminish my points, I don't think. )

[Sir Heroscape]

@Xotli thank you for stepping in on this. I'd be more than willing to nominate myself to be a part of the inner working of a map project. I'd be fine with a new selection of members taking over the current BoV...but i'm also excited about the possibility of a new group being developed to facilitate the release of new tournament balanced maps. The BoV has a name and history which makes it a little more "official" but maybe a new system would bring new fire and ideas, I'm not sure. Either way, I'd like to be considered for a position. Heck, we could even turn The Ruins of Valhalla map building contest into something more official...just a thought. @TREX and @Tiranx I'm sure would also be interested in an opportunity to participate, and considering that we all live pretty close geographically, we could collaborate in person as well as over PM etc.

So...from here...who really makes the decision? Will it be you?

[Xotli]

Originally Posted by Xotli

EDIT: I'm wrong: 2/2012 is Draugur; there appears to be one newer map, Dance of the Dryads, which is dated 4/2013. There appears to be some naming inconsistency in the BoV maps, which makes them more annoying to search for. Perhaps the top post should have a definitive list? I'll also work on consistencizing the names in the Downloads area.

Okay, ANAICT Stygian Rift and Dance of the Dryads are the only two actual BoV maps I was missing, because they didn't conform to the standard naming convention. I've corrected those. I actually have no idea how anyone on the site actually finds BoV maps, because you can't actually search for "BoV" (search terms have to be longer than 3 letters). The way I do it is to search on the database side for "BoV Map," which explains why I missed these two.

In order to find them, I had to search for just "BoV," which of course brought up every map with the word "above" in it, plus two others (Blazing Palms and Black Oasis) which just appear to have the word "BoV" in the map title but are not actually BoV maps. So ... yeah. Please let me know if I'm wrong on either of those.

By my count, there are 32 BoV maps (not counting alternate versions). If there really is a list somewhere that I'm just missing, please let me know. If not, perhaps I'll clean up my hacky little list and put it in the top post or something.

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

@Xotli thank you for stepping in on this. I'd be more than willing to nominate myself to be a part of the inner working of a map project. I'd be fine with a new selection of members taking over the current BoV...but i'm also excited about the possibility of a new group being developed to facilitate the release of new tournament balanced maps. The BoV has a name and history which makes it a little more "official" but maybe a new system would bring new fire and ideas, I'm not sure. Either way, I'd like to be considered for a position. Heck, we could even turn The Ruins of Valhalla map building contest into something more official...just a thought. @TREX and @Tiranx I'm sure would also be interested in an opportunity to participate, and considering that we all live pretty close geographically, we could collaborate in person as well as over PM etc.

So...from here...who really makes the decision? Will it be you?

There's not really any decision to be made. If you want to start talking to people about plans for a new group, start talking. If you gain the support of the community (or at least those who care about moving forward), then you'll gain traction, and you'll eventually come up with a plan, and people will like that plan, and then you can present that plan, and people will either help you move forward with it, or propose reasons why it isn't viable, or offer suggestions to make it better, or whatever. The only thing you need me for is to set up an area for your new group, if you decide to have a new group, or maybe to help out with access or badges or what-have-you if the existing group decides to pass on the reins to you (but I bet those folks can do that sort of thing themselves without any need for my intervention--again, if they decide that's the direction they want to go in). But any of that stuff is down the line, after you have a plan. So, don't wait for permission: start organizing now.



EDIT: Crap. I meant 32 maps. I accidentally counted an alternate version after all.