SOV/C3V Feedback Thread

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

I love the idea of incentives btw. Sometimes small gestures can go a long way in making someone feel valued.

Maybe we didn't do a good enough job marketing it, but for those involved in the Playtesting Tournament there are being prizes awarded at the end of it. Those prizes consist of some of the unreleased C3V figures. That, to my knowledge, has never been done before and is an incredible incentive for playtesters to get involved. I imagine if we have the means to do so in the future, we will, if that's what it takes to get people involved in the projects.

[Heroscaper Guy]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Maybe we didn't do a good enough job marketing it, but for those involved in the Playtesting Tournament there are being prizes awarded at the end of it. Those prizes consist of some of the unreleased C3V figures. That, to my knowledge, has never been done before and is an incredible incentive for playtesters to get involved. I imagine if we have the means to do so in the future, we will, if that's what it takes to get people involved in the projects.

Yeah dont think the other playtesting tourney had prizes. Heh, I remember the prize of Aquilla's Alliance in Season 3. Don't think that's ever gonna happen again.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

Maybe we didn't do a good enough job marketing it, but for those involved in the Playtesting Tournament there are being prizes awarded at the end of it. Those prizes consist of some of the unreleased C3V figures. That, to my knowledge, has never been done before and is an incredible incentive for playtesters to get involved. I imagine if we have the means to do so in the future, we will, if that's what it takes to get people involved in the projects.

Incentives need to be different than just new designs, or even the figures for new designs. Those prizes are not bad, and they will motivate some players, but not every player. Even players that don't own everything like I do, will not always want everything. Getting a unreleased design/figure that they can't use at any real life meet ups (because no one else knows the design, or knows if it's even balanced) for several months, or possibly even years, isn't going to get that much participation.

I own all official units, and C3V/SoV, in quantities large enough to take to a tournament, no matter how low/high the tier. I even buy the unused announced figures shortly after announcement. A small chunk of the online playtest images that have been added recently were taken by me. Something I've noticed since I completed my Heroscape Collection, prizes don't incentivize me much anymore. I have anything I could want, and anything that I might want in the future, I will probably buy before the opportunity to win it will arrive. I'm explaining this so that you understand, I don't care about the prizes when I go to tournaments. I certainly used to, but even back then, the main reason I enter tournaments, is because playing with other people is way more fun than playing by yourself. I don't playtest C3V designs very often, mostly because to me, playtesting means playing by myself. I would rather playtest my own designs, if I'm going to playtest by myself. I decided to enter the playtest tournament because I would be playing with other people.

I want to clarify that I'm not against playtesting for the C3V, I just have no motivation to do so. I would probably be way more willing to do so if I could playtest with other people. For me personally, my work schedule has me busy during the times of day (~3pm to ~1am depending on the day, and what is needed) that most people are free, so even online heroscape doesn't tend to workout for me. Sir Heroscape can testify to the number of times he has sent me a message to play online, and gotten a response an hour or more later, that I'm at work, and won't be off until he's asleep. This will be changing in a few weeks. I'm moving up into a new position, and I'll be working mornings mostly. 5 and half years of late night, or over night, shifts finally comes to an end. I'll probably run a playtest or two for the C3V each week once that starts, just because I'll be able to do so online with a real person.

[Heroscaper Guy]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

Incentives need to be different than just new designs, or even the figures for new designs. Those prizes are not bad, and they will motivate some players, but not every player. Even players that don't own everything like I do, will not always want everything. Getting a unreleased design/figure that they can't use at any real life meet ups (because no one else knows the design, or knows if it's even balanced) for several months, or possibly even years, isn't going to get that much participation.

I own all official units, and C3V/SoV, in quantities large enough to take to a tournament, no matter how low/high the tier. I even buy the unused announced figures shortly after announcement. A small chunk of the online playtest images that have been added recently were taken by me. Something I've noticed since I completed my Heroscape Collection, prizes don't incentivize me much anymore. I have anything I could want, and anything that I might want in the future, I will probably buy before the opportunity to win it will arrive. I'm explaining this so that you understand, I don't care about the prizes when I go to tournaments. I certainly used to, but even back then, the main reason I enter tournaments, is because playing with other people is way more fun than playing by yourself. I don't playtest C3V designs very often, mostly because to me, playtesting means playing by myself. I would rather playtest my own designs, if I'm going to playtest by myself. I decided to enter the playtest tournament because I would be playing with other people.

I want to clarify that I'm not against playtesting for the C3V, I just have no motivation to do so. I would probably be way more willing to do so if I could playtest with other people. For me personally, my work schedule has me busy during the times of day (~3pm to ~1am depending on the day, and what is needed) that most people are free, so even online heroscape doesn't tend to workout for me. Sir Heroscape can testify to the number of times he has sent me a message to play online, and gotten a response an hour or more later, that I'm at work, and won't be off until he's asleep. This will be changing in a few weeks. I'm moving up into a new position, and I'll be working mornings mostly. 5 and half years of late night, or over night, shifts finally comes to an end. I'll probably run a playtest or two for the C3V each week once that starts, just because I'll be able to do so online with a real person.

I mean honestly, send me a message if you want to playtest online. I work online atm, so I could honestly do it while playing (and have hours I pick so don't have to do that either). Plus I'm a night owl (3 am here, and can't sleep so).

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Heroscaper Guy

I mean honestly, send me a message if you want to playtest online. I work online atm, so I could honestly do it while playing (and have hours I pick so don't have to do that either). Plus I'm a night owl (3 am here, and can't sleep so).

Neat, I'll keep you in mind.

[Lazy Orang]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Your comments about VC members not posting in the other customs threads makes me wonder if you read what we've been saying about the amount of time and commitment these projects take from us. I used to spend a lot of time looking at people's customs and commenting. When I have time, I still do. But I have a busy life and what time I do have for Heroscapers is taken up with these projects. They take a *lot* of work. I generally feel like most people appreciate the effort we put into the content we produce but maybe you just don't?

I'm not saying that, I'm not blaming anyone, and I'm making no judgements. I'm just stating a clear case of cause and effect. Since people only tend to get comments when workshopping for SoV, it clearly incentivises putting all your energy into getting a submission and deincentivises personal creativity. Whatever the cause of it, all the lipservice to the value of personal customs in the world isn't going to change the fact that, in the current system, they aren't treated as having any real value, and going for a SoV submission has become increasingly what the customs community is 'for'.


Also:

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

Release schedule
The C3V has done amazing work and has really kept this community alive. I do love the releases and look forward to each and every one of them. However, the release schedule seems to be a little sporadic and unpredictable.

I understand that there is a goal to “get it right” and release when its ready, but keep in mind that if you were a retail business, you wouldn’t have the luxury of not releasing a product. It has been often remarked in business that the most creative ideas and the best products were released under difficult restraints. Think back to your favorite Nintendo music of yesterday. You can remember those songs can’t you? And yet they were produced under very limited hardware which, incidentally forced the designer to be as creative as possible. Keeping to a release schedule is tough, but it does help reduce some of the discussion over the minutia while focusing on what is really important.

It will also help with the momentum for the project. I think if you want the general community to be involved, you have to keep to some schedule so that people can look forward to each release. This is something that I think the C3G does really well since there is always something new around the corner.

I agree with all of this, 100%. The glacial pace of C3V releases does not help to make it feel vibrant. C3G manages a fairly astounding pace and maintains strong balance... I don't think a pace of one full Wave (released together for a bigger impact) should be impossible, particularly if you lay down greater and more obvious incentives for playtesting.


I'll also say that VC feels far too beholden to what's come before, to a frankly staggering degree. Take the 3 Range argument - there were people arguing that, because the designers hadn't given anyone 3 Range, there was clearly a reason, so we shouldn't either. I'm sorry, but what? There is no issue that would open up, and the reason the official designers didn't design anyone with 3 Range is because there hadn't been anyone for whom 3 Range would be fitting. It's not this important gap - it's something they understandably never got round to, because, granted, it is a tad niche. This is just one example of an attitude that I feel is directly hostile to creativity. I remember reading that 'being different is a weakness, not a strength', to paraphrase. You do seem to be actively hostile to new ideas.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I personally feel no responsibility or inclination to provide feedback on personal custom threads. I'm here for collaboration and enjoy group projects that are give and take. I have no real incentive to get involved in personal custom threads of other people and no real interest in what they're doing. To me, personal custom threads, where it's about a singular designer rather than collaboration, are much more of an all take, no give situation.

Personal designers neither ask for outside testing nor do they singlehandedly dominate the landscape. It's not really comparable, in any way. There may be little give, but there's virtually zero take.

Also, while I'm certainly not against collaboration, I feel as though the veneration of it over everything else is concerning. Personal creativity can be just as valuable as the collaboration of a larger group - I feel as though an attitude that's almost critical of someone persuing their own ideas and interests is deeply harmful, and has resulted in the place we're in now.

[IAmBatman]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Personal designers neither ask for outside testing nor do they singlehandedly dominate the landscape. It's not really comparable, in any way. There may be little give, but there's virtually zero take.

Your entire complaint is based on their wanting to take more and not being able to. There's very little give from personal customs and if there's very little take it's not because personal customs don't want to take, it's because people aren't interested. Personal customs, by their nature, are a self-centered pursuit, so it shouldn't be shocking when you don't always inspire participation from others.

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

Also, while I'm certainly not against collaboration, I feel as though the veneration of it over everything else is concerning. Personal creativity can be just as valuable as the collaboration of a larger group - I feel as though an attitude that's almost critical of someone persuing their own ideas and interests is deeply harmful, and has resulted in the place we're in now.

Plenty of people venerate personal customs over collaboration. Plenty of people do personal customizing over collaboration. And I'm totally happy for them to do so (literally no skin off my nose). The difference between these two pursuits is that one, by definition, is an individual pursuit, and one, by definition, is a community pursuit. Should it be any surprise, then, that the community pursuit involves more group discussions, energy, and involvement?

I'm not saying personal customs are objectively worse than collaborative projects (I believe that they are the majority of the time, but that's an argument for another time, irrelevant to this discussion). I'm saying I'm not interested in participating in personal customs. Personal customs are a way of saying: I want to do this my way, this is my vision, and I'm not really interested in working together.

OK, so other than saying "hey, that's cool, man" what do I have to contribute to that compared to a collaborative effort?

At their best, personal customs might evolve into spontaneous collaboration, based on feedback and the openness of the person who will claim sole credit for the end product. That's personal customizing at its best. Why would I invest any significant time seeking out that interaction in personal custom threads, hoping to shift the winds that don't naturally blow that way, when I could just collaborate easily and naturally in a playground that's set up for that express purpose?

Personal creativity and collaboration are both worthwhile and should both coexist (and have and do just fine). But if you expect to get just as much attention working alone as you do working together, then you're not being honest to yourself about how the world does (or should) work.

[SuperSamyon]

In regards to commenting on custom projects
To everyone's defense, I think in 2019 forums are just old fashioned and most people would rather provide feedback on social media or a discord channel. Also, our forum has many different sections and sub sections which separates us even more (a whole other topic for discussion) so it's very easy to get lost or miss important threads.

Thankfully, we have a Facebook group for Heroscapers that has actually been picking up lately. People sometimes share their personal work as well and others offer feedback. To me, it is more conducent for discussion especially since sometimes I feel bad providing feedback in custom threads when it's not asked. At least on Facebook and discord when you post you are clearly asking for feedback.

Our Discord channel has also seen a lot of action with people providing feedback... Many of which comes from the C3V community.

In regards to recognizing playtesters
What a great idea to add their names to books! Especially since if you really think about it, the real reason why so many people want their customs in the SOV is not just to have their work recognized but to have their name as a contributor to the Heroscape Canon. Adding playtestors names to the books will help with that desire and most likely increase participation. It may also help people to start designing for designing sake since their name is recognized elsewhere.

By the way, kudos to our playtestors today. Their detailed reports are amazing and I'm so impressed whenever I see someone take the time to write a book on their thoughts.

[robbdaman]

Originally Posted by Lazy Orang

I agree with all of this, 100%. The glacial pace of C3V releases does not help to make it feel vibrant. C3G manages a fairly astounding pace and maintains strong balance... I don't think a pace of one full Wave (released together for a bigger impact) should be impossible, particularly if you lay down greater and more obvious incentives for playtesting.


I'll also say that VC feels far too beholden to what's come before, to a frankly staggering degree. Take the 3 Range argument - there were people arguing that, because the designers hadn't given anyone 3 Range, there was clearly a reason, so we shouldn't either. I'm sorry, but what? There is no issue that would open up, and the reason the official designers didn't design anyone with 3 Range is because there hadn't been anyone for whom 3 Range would be fitting. It's not this important gap - it's something they understandably never got round to, because, granted, it is a tad niche. This is just one example of an attitude that I feel is directly hostile to creativity. I remember reading that 'being different is a weakness, not a strength', to paraphrase. You do seem to be actively hostile to new ideas.

I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

[flameslayer93]

I hear this and agree that there are some figures announced to be used from years ago that are still in the process. Any thoughts on how to fix these issues?

It helps when designs are good from the get go when they enter testing. I recall testing Marutuk years ago, and she wasn’t good enough imo. The last version I tested of her really made her feel like a big DnD monster boss, kinda what I think they were going for (without actually knowing what were going for).

The 12th Caucus Rifles also got changed quite a bit, their Gas Grenade was a d20 power. Right now it’s a Special Attack that works as a third attack per turn. I’ve no idea how many other versions the C3V have tried so far.

[SuperSamyon]

I actually believe that announcing a figure two years in advance before you can release it (although obviously not the intention) really damages the C3V project. I only play Heroscape so owning a figure that doesn't have a card is just going to take up space and collect dust. Like all other Heroscape players will attest to, space is always a factor for Heroscape. Also, when it finally does launch, the figure is sometimes completely unavailable for purchase. I would love it if once a figure is announced, the C3V team commits to have it launch within 6 months or sooner. That so be a great customer service gesture.

Something to consider is to simply bolster the ranks of the C3V to take on the backlog. The community is smaller, yes, but if people are posting on a forum in 2019 for a niche game, they are pretty engaged and committed. I see the playtestors as prime candidates for induction. As flame alluded above me, bringing more testers at the ground level helps speed the process along since designs are not sent back quite as often.

I think the silent majority lives in the Facebook groups and the passionate minority lives on these forums. It is for that reason that I believe ever single person who posts regularly on these forums should have a job if they want one. Barring of course individuals who do not work well with others.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by SuperSamyon

I actually believe that announcing a figure two years in advance before you can release it (although obviously not the intention) really damages the C3V project. I only play Heroscape so owning a figure that doesn't have a card is just going to take up space and collect dust. Like all other Heroscape players will attest to, space is always a factor for Heroscape. Also, when it finally does launch, the figure is sometimes completely unavailable for purchase. I would love it if once a figure is announced, the C3V team commits to have it launch within 6 months or sooner. That so be a great customer service gesture.

What you are asking for is just not possible with the constraints that we are faced with. (Waiting on the miniatures available to the public, releases from Pathfinder etc.) We don't have the ability to design our own sculpts.

What I do know, is we move as quickly as we can on a unit, but each unit moves at it's own speed depending on numerous things. Each can have it's own set of criteria. Is the unit super complex? How does it interact with X, Y, Z? Is it fun? Back to the drawing board due to playtesting results(12th, Marutuk as examples). It took a long time for those figures to get the right feel, the right suggestion from someone to move them along.

There is no cookie cutter approach, a secret formula. Original designers could say we want Goblins. Start designing Goblin unit and wait for the Sculpt to be done. We do not have the resources to do that.

What I can say, is we try to get a unit out to the public as fast as we can, and we want that unit to be complete.