Green Wyrmling discussion and playtesting

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Grey Waves

I'm going to preface this by saying @Scytale that even though we've never talked, I deeply respect you as an SOV judge and for the role that you've had in shaping the SOV/VC canon during your tenure. I always enjoy reading your unit reviews, and I think that more often than not, you hit the nail on the head when deciding whether a figure deserves to be upvoted.

However, I don't think you appreciate how deep you're in the minority with this point of view. To the overwhelming, overwhelming majority of players, the 'most important aspect' of Heroscape wyrmlings is not that they D&D wyrmlings, but that they are miniature versions of the classic Heroscape dragons. (Especially now that the Blue Wyrmling has an 'adult version' in Quahon). Most players do not care 2 bits about the wrymling's homeworld or the fact that they originated in D&D, and for the players that do, only a fraction of them actually believe that the Green Wyrmling should have some sort of poison breath attack. I would be very confident in saying that well over 95% of players would vastly prefer Fledgling Counter Strike - I doubt that people who genuinely think the Green Wyrmling can't have this ability because it conflicts with D&D lore would even make up 5% of the player base.

Now, I do understand that as an SOV judge you are free to vote however you would like. However, at the same time, if something like 97-98% of players would strongly prefer Fledgling Counter Strike, and you fall into the 2-3% that doesn't, should you still be voting in accordance with your own personal view of what a Heroscape wyrmling actually is? If it turns out that the Green Wyrmling is overpowered, unbalanced or whatever, then sure, go ahead and downvote. But I don't think that you should be downvoting a figure for lore reasons when your interpretation of said lore goes against what the absolute, overwhelming majority of players agree on and would prefer.

Thank you, thank you, thank you. Full agreement with the above, adding two other points that have been made over and over: Black Wyrmling is baby Braxas, not baby Othkurik; and if you showed and random wymrling to 100 random people, I guarantee there is a very, very small number that would definitively say "that must be a D&D wyrmling".

Originally Posted by Grey Waves

*shrugs* It seems to be what people have been advocating for in this thread. The point is moreso that there is near-unanimous support for the Green Wyrmling having *some* version of Counter Strike; only an absolute minority would be in favour of a poison breath attack instead.

Counter Strike may be weak overall in the metagame, but given that a green wyrmling is a baby Charos, it follows that like the other wyrmlings it has a "fledgling" version of the adult's signature power. Additionally, full Counter Strike has proven to be too strong in certain builds. It's about fulfilling these two criteria, not "Counter Strike but make it worse" for its own sake.

[Sir Heroscape]

FWIW, I agree with the majority.

We need a Green Wyrmling and it should be a mini Charos.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Grey Waves

Now, I do understand that as an SOV judge you are free to vote however you would like. However, at the same time, if something like 97-98% of players would strongly prefer Fledgling Counter Strike, and you fall into the 2-3% that doesn't, should you still be voting in accordance with your own personal view of what a Heroscape wyrmling actually is? If it turns out that the Green Wyrmling is overpowered, unbalanced or whatever, then sure, go ahead and downvote. But I don't think that you should be downvoting a figure for lore reasons when your interpretation of said lore goes against what the absolute, overwhelming majority of players agree on and would prefer.

So if we make a big green dragon for Ullar that has a poison breath attack, you'd be ok with a fledgling poison breath wyrmling? What if I submitted a different black wyrmling for Utgar with fledgling acid breath?

VC in general knows me (perhaps infamously) as something gatekeeper of D&D lore in Heroscape. This isn't a matter of personal preference like whether or not battle droids could be Soulborgs; WotC made Heroscape units and entire sets (even a master set) in the D&D universe, with D&D figures on D&D worlds. Making what is clearly a D&D green wyrmling into not a D&D wyrmling, when we already have 4 other D&D wyrmlings, is crossing a line to me.

If such a unit came to SoV, I would vote against it to review and against it in UF review, as is my right and purpose as a SoV Judge and VC member. But I'm just one vote. If it made it to full review, I would judge it for its merits, as the VC community would have already decided the D&D issue was not a concern.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Scytale

Making what is clearly a D&D green wyrmling into not a D&D wyrmling.

I find it hard to believe none of the Icarian dragons could pass for D&D dragons.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Scytale

.

If such a unit came to SoV, I would vote against it to review and against it in UF review, as is my right and purpose as a SoV Judge and VC member. But I'm just one vote. If it made it to full review, I would judge it for its merits, as the VC community would have already decided the D&D issue was not a concern.

I think it important for people to read this and understand the subtlety in the distinctions here. This is the challenge for a judge. There I figures I up voted be cause I recognize the excitement and merits of the unit even when I don't care for the playstyle or theme.

Lawmen synergy was contentious until it wasn't. I'd be happy to not see another monk, gladiator, ninja or rogue for years. Would I down vote to review, maybe, would I down vote at unified review, probably, would I down vote at testing, not if the unit deserved it's place when a majority of VC members felt it merited inclusion.

I have to admit this debate is only so strong due to the respect and weight Scytale opinion carries (which is well deserved). Im humbled to admit I doubt there be much discussion if it was I throwing up red flags. Our votes may be the same but their impact is felt differently.

[Grey Waves]

Originally Posted by Scytale

So if we make a big green dragon for Ullar that has a poison breath attack, you'd be ok with a fledgling poison breath wyrmling?

Yeah sure. In that case the Green Wyrmling would just be a baby version of that VC dragon instead of Charos. I don't think that doing things the other way round (creating a wyrmling with a poison breath attack first and then making a corresponding VC green dragon) is right though - until said VC dragon came out people are just going to get confused why the Green Wyrmling isn't a mini version of Charos.

Originally Posted by Scytale

What if I submitted a different black wyrmling for Utgar with fledgling acid breath?

Not exactly sure what the point of this question is, but my answer is probably not, unless the new black wyrmling looked noticeably different from the original and it's version fledgling acid breath functioned differently to the original's.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Making what is clearly a D&D green wyrmling into not a D&D wyrmling, when we already have 4 other D&D wyrmlings, is crossing a line to me.

I would argue that the 4 pre-existing wyrmlings are D&D wyrmlings in name only. They were clearly designed to be baby versions of the classic HS dragons, and it also seems pretty clear that the only reason they come from Eberron rather than Icaria is that the designers from the D&D waves were prohibited from making any unit's home planet anything that didn't originate in the D&D universe. Also, to echo @NecroBlade how many HS players can actually tell the difference between a D&D wymling and a non-D&D wyrmling?

Originally Posted by Scytale

If such a unit came to SoV, I would vote against it to review and against it in UF review, as is my right and purpose as a SoV Judge and VC member. But I'm just one vote. If it made it to full review, I would judge it for its merits, as the VC community would have already decided the D&D issue was not a concern.

That's fair. I don't think any of us non-judges understood the distinction between how votes are cast at the initial review/UF stage vs. the full review stage before you and @wriggz clarified it.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

I find it hard to believe none of the Icarian dragons could pass for D&D dragons.

They couldn't. D&D dragons have specific looks. It's like confusing different breeds of dog.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Grey Waves

I would argue that the 4 pre-existing wyrmlings are D&D wyrmlings in name only.

I would argue that no, the Heroscape dragons mostly matched D&D ones. Fire breath for red, frost breath for white, etc. Which isn't saying they copied D&D, but rather the general concept ended up the same. And how about the blue one? That didn't copy any Heroscape one.

[UtahScott]

@Scytale --
(I must say I've got a lot of respect for you, you are one of the most knowledgable posters here, and your respect for both D&D canon and HeroScape mechanics is impressive. Please keep it up--it means a lot to the continuation of FanScape.)

I don't spout off much, but I think what most of us are arguing for is continuation of the 'scapey powers side of things: Nilfheim must target different figures with its Special, as does the White Wyrmling; Braxas' acid breath can only target non-Large figures, with differing chances to wound Hero and Squad figures, as does the Black Wyrmling; Zelrig targets commons and they roll 2 fewer defense dice, as does the Red Wyrmling. The full-size 'Scape dragon powers came first, and the Wyrmlings were copied to them.

Similarly, FanScape extrapolated the Blue Wyrmling's lightning power up to a full-sized Quahon, and it's a moot point to us that all these attack types may also be accurate for that D&D dragon color. Ice, acid, fire, lightning--these names are just flavor text here; it's the powers that were matched between full-size 'Scape dragons and same-color wyrmling. This was continued by FanScape with Quahon, and by gum, now that there's a colored green wyrmling available that's the same size as Wave 12, we want a green wyrmling with some reduced version of Charos' Counterstrike, and the Green Wyrmling's D&D canon abilities are irrelevant to HeroScape and can stay on the D&D side of the fence. The D&D 'Scape releases were twelve years ago, but FanScape continues, I hope, with a Greenling whose 'Scape abilities echo its 'Scape Ullar parent. Baby steps.

I have no problem with a full-sized D&D Green Dragon with a poison gas cone-shaped special attack that could go out along 6 hexes in a cone shape, and a Young Green Dragon could copy it with three hexes in a cone shape. A cone-shaped Special Attack works with dragon breath and hexes, and hasn't been done yet in HeroScape, but let's cross that bridge when FanScape comes to it.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Scytale

They couldn't. D&D dragons have specific looks. It's like confusing different breeds of dog.

This is where I almost side with Scytale. As I mentioned seeing a MechWarrior timber wolf would be jarring every time to me. I think it was soundwarp that commented seeing Jace from AotP as anything other than Jace would be jarring.

To see a D&d wyrmlings that is green without poison breath next to other D&d wyrmlings with the correct power would be jarring if you were deep in that fandom.

However to most people a green dragon is a green dragon, the subtlety is lost. Of course a young Charo's might look like a green wyrmling - whose to say. After all D&d humans, earth humans, meradieans and most kyrie (sans wings) look remarkable similar.

It does help that the mini suggested her look chunkier than a typical green dragon.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by UtahScott

I don't spout off much, but I think what most of us are arguing for is continuation of the 'scapey powers side of things: Nilfheim must target different figures with its Special, as does the White Wyrmling; Braxas' acid breath can only target non-Large figures, with differing chances to wound Hero and Squad figures, as does the Black Wyrmling; Zelrig targets commons and they roll 2 fewer defense dice, as does the Red Wyrmling. The full-size 'Scape dragon powers came first, and the Wyrmlings were copied to them.

Like adapting a book into a movie, things have to change when the medium changes. D&D and Heroscape use different combat systems and direct porting between them doesn't work. With breath weapons, for example, Heroscape doesn't have damage types, so direct ports would end up with all of them acting mostly the same. The original designers did a good job of giving different breath weapons uniqueness while sticking to themes.

When adapting the wyrmlings, they were able to use pre-established ideas for adapting breath weapons while keeping to D&D lore. Acid breath isn't a instant-kill-or-nothing in D&D, but it works well in Heroscape as an adaptation alongside other breath weapons. But even there, notice that the Black Wyrmling does not have Fledgling Poisonous Acid Breath, it has Fledgling Acid Breath, regardless of the fact that it operates like Braxas's. D&D black dragons have acid breath, not poison or poisonous acid.

The rough part here is that Charos is a weird dragon design. He flies, check, but a dragon without a breath weapon? It's not just general dragon lore here, every other Icarian dragon has a breath weapon. If Charos didn't exist and was created and submitted now to SoV, he would likely fail for that theme break. So what's his story? The flavor write up doesn't say. Personally I suspect he has or used to have a breath weapon, but was injured or too proud to use it or something.

Is counterstriking something all green dragons can do on Icaria? Thematically, I don't find that likely, based on Charos's flavor text: "His great wings can buffet any attack and counter it, striking the unsuspecting assailant." That sounds to me more like a function of Charos's size and skill, not some inherent green dragon ability. Really, even if we made another full-size Icarian green dragon, we'd likely give it a breath weapon.

[TheAverageFan]

There may be an argument to be made for the fact that the Black Wyrmling is modeled after Braxas (Vydar) rather than Othkurik (Utgar). A fledgling version of Acid Spray SA would've been easy enough to do, other than perhaps over-similarity to the Blue's SA.

I think the desire for Charos Wyrmling outweighs the desire to make sure specific color/designs don't match up with the ones D&D uses for their extremely recognizable dragons. I do feel like a D&D-accurate Green Wyrmling would make a lot of people scratch their head and ask "where counterstrike?" We already have D&D Dungeon Command Orc minis that are still from Grut despite clear differences in their appearance from Classic. And &!@#ing Super Battle Droids. But it's okay because we got some great units out of it.

We also wouldn't be in this conundrum had the designers not chosen to have their D&D dragons mirror the Classic Scape ones. Could've had the Black Wyrm modeled off Othkurik, with Red and White having unique SAs to promise future new adult dragons the way Blue ended up. Then obviously a Green Wyrmling wouldn't be like Charos, everyone would agree. But as-is the two universes' dragons are undeniably linked. Maybe the Green should have Poison SA and Counterstrike (or just 5 Defense) just to make everyone happy.

~TAF