The Book of Ranjit Singh

[superfrog]

The duration is defined by the other markers. You are correct that if Ranjit reveals the X and it gets noped away later, the power stays in effect.

Although, I’m not sure of any powers that mess with the placement of revealed OMs.

One consequence of the current wording vs. “rest of the round” wording is that if Rygarn moves an OM that could disrupt (or even trigger for the first time) Lion of Punjab.

Also. If a card is destroyed, it no longer falls under “you control” and the buff is negated. I guess that Rygarn could potentially fix that, though…

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Also. If a card is destroyed, it no longer falls under “you control” and the buff is negated. I guess that Rygarn could potentially fix that, though…

I thought you always controlled Army Cards, regardless of whether or not the figures were alive?

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

I thought you always controlled Army Cards, regardless of whether or not the figures were alive?

"You control" is narrower than "in your army". Undropped Airborne don't affect 4th Mass Valiant bonus because while they are "in your army" you don't "control" them until they drop.

~Dysole, informationally

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by superfrog

Although, I’m not sure of any powers that mess with the placement of revealed OMs.

Revealed OMs can be removed by things like Crippling Gaze, Mind Shackle, Soul Devour, Stab in the Back, and Living Storm. It's fair to wonder whether some of these, thematically, would put an end to Lion of Punjab, but I'm more concerned with a consistent ruling that can be applied to any situation like this. The duration of the effect, as far as I can tell, is not actually defined on the card, so this seems to beg either (a) some careful analysis leading to a master ruling, or (b) a revision to the text that defines whether the effect lasts for the duration of the round or until the first moment when the X is no longer on the army card (or perhaps something else).

One consequence of the current wording vs. “rest of the round” wording is that if Rygarn moves an OM that could disrupt (or even trigger for the first time) Lion of Punjab.

Rygarn can only move numbered OMs, so all he can do is enable/disable the moment-by-moment conditions for using LoP with any particular army card. I'm trying to keep all that separate from the question as to how long the overall potential to use the power lasts.

In other words, I think LoP has an activation at the start of the round and then zero or more actual uses during the turns. We know the requirements on the X for activation, and we know the requirements on the 1/2/3 for uses, but it's unclear whether there are any requirements on the X for the uses.

Crag of Steel and Frost Rage make it clear that, once their powers have been activated, the X doesn't matter for uses because of the phrase "for the duration of the round" — but Lion of Punjab lacks this phrase. On the other hand it also lacks an explicit requirement for the X to still be in place on Ranjit, so there are two different reasonable interpretations for the design intent.

My guess is that the intent was "for the duration of the round" (which would make this power consistent with the two existing powers it's closely related to). But we'll have to see what the rules team says.

[NecroBlade]

I always thought the 4th cared about controlling the figures, not the card, guess it had been a while since I actually read them. It's a pretty wild idea to me that you wouldn't be considered controlling a card that you're actively rolling for and making choices for (that goes for more cards than just Airborne). And this also implies that controlling a card is secondary to controlling the figure(s), although this checks out with Ne-Gok-Sa, too, as he takes control of "the chosen figure and that figure's Army Card".

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by NecroBlade

It's a pretty wild idea to me that you wouldn't be considered controlling a card that you're actively rolling for and making choices for

Yeah, that has always seemed wrong to me. This all stems from that early ruling in which Hasbro didn't want the off-map AE to mess up the 4th bonus, but also didn't want to have to errata either of the cards, so they came up with this (counterintuitive) patch ruling that then became irreversible after more new units were written based on it.

I remember thinking they would have had fewer headaches going forward if they had just bitten the bullet on that one card errata. They could have established that there was a difference between controlling a card and controlling the figures. In the early game you don't control the AE figures since they're not on the battlefield, but you do control their army card since you're using its text and rolling the d20 for it. Simple, and eliminates the cognitive disconnect.

Or, they could have just let that one personality bonus situation not work, and let the cards do what they say they do.

But in the early years of a new game it's easy for designers to want to tweak and nuance individual situations at the (future) expense of the overall rules engine, because they haven't yet had to deal with the interpretation burden of hundreds of interworking parts that years of additions will bring. It's natural, unfortunately. I've seen it happen more than once, and I've even been responsible for it myself before I learned that lesson. So here we are in 2022 having to remind ourselves again that you can use the text of, and roll the die for, a card you do not actually control.

[superfrog]

JaB, the duration is clearly defined: “while your other three Order Markers are on Army Cards you control that follow three different Valkyrie Generals”.

[NecroBlade]

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

They could have established that there was a difference between controlling a card and controlling the figures. In the early game you don't control the AE figures since they're not on the battlefield, but you do control their army card since you're using its text and rolling the d20 for it. Simple, and eliminates the cognitive disconnect.

This is exactly how it's been working my head all these years.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by superfrog

JaB, the duration is clearly defined: “while your other three Order Markers are on Army Cards you control that follow three different Valkyrie Generals”.

You're talking about the duration of the individual uses of the power; I'm talking about the duration of the activation of the power that allows the uses. In other words, every time you reveal the X, how long does that allow you to keep getting bonuses whenever you're taking orders from three different generals?

I think the right answer is "for the duration of the round." But other things that last for the duration of the round explicitly say so. Since this one does not, the next two thoughts become why doesn't it say so? and I wonder if this one works differently.

We can argue that we should infer for the duration of the round, but we can also argue that we should infer for as long as the X remains on the guy. These will be the same thing often, but not always, so we need to know which one it is.

[Scytale]

We should have put an "until the end of the round" on there. The intent is that the duration of the power is until the end of the round, but is only active while the three order markers requirement is met. In theory moving of order markers could remove the benefit and then restart it later in the same round. The placement of the 'X' does not matter after the initial reveal.

[Just_a_Bill]

Thanks for the official word, @Scytale . I also just now noticed this:

The existing cards that reveal "X" OMs all use quotation marks rather than apostrophes, and they all say an "X" rather than the "X":

CRAG OF STEEL (Siege) — you may also reveal an "X" order marker
DIVINE MISSION (VN) — you may reveal an "X" order marker
FROST RAGE (Evar) — you may also reveal an "X" order marker
LABORS (Heracles) — you may reveal an "X" order marker

Just noting it here in case the card ever gets cracked open for editing.

[MacBryce]

Does anyone have an idea for a better sculpt for this? I got the Merchant one depicted in this thread but the scale does not look right at all to me next to other Heroscape figures.

(Mine has a transparent base so maybe it is a different version?)