The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by Ixe

I'm not sure if I agree with this one. While it would be a nice boost, the thing that I found most appealing about the Bladesmen is how they took the inherent weakness of being only a two figure squad and gained a bonus from that. I am worried that an ability that increases their defense for the more of them (or other figures) present will run counter to this sub-theme.

I like the re-roll ability, not sure that other valiant figures around is the way to go.

The major issue I see right now, is that the current ability as written for Jandar's Favor, works against ranged too. For these guys to be viable, they would need a way to survive vs range. Re-doing the Jandar's Favor ability would need to address that I think.

Perhaps a combination or re-rolling + combat prowess including each enemy they are engaged with gives them +1/+1 attack/defensive dice.

Or a Bonus defensive dice for each Skull that is rolled against them(a cap would likely be needed.)

I will have to think about this, I don't have a solution as if this moment if many of you feel Jandar's Favor just doesn't fit the card. I am certainly open to suggestions.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

The major issue I see right now, is that the current ability as written for Jandar's Favor, works against ranged too. For these guys to be viable, they would need a way to survive vs range. Re-doing the Jandar's Favor ability would need to address that I think.

Perhaps a combination or re-rolling + combat prowess including each enemy they are engaged with gives them +1/+1 attack/defensive dice.

Or a Bonus defensive dice for each Skull that is rolled against them(a cap would likely be needed.)

I will have to think about this, I don't have a solution as if this moment if many of you feel Jandar's Favor just doesn't fit the card. I am certainly open to suggestions.

All those other powers also feel arbitrary.

It's okay for them to not be quite as good against range. They don't have to do and be everything. 4 Defense is pretty tough. Also, they're the same against melee as they are against screened range.

[Kinseth]

Caps part of the point of these guys is they have been imbued with a defensive ability by Jandar, does that notion in itself feel arbitrary to you ?

I'd have to revisit their cost if they are weakened vs range. Part of their cost was based on their toughness vs range also.

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Ixe

1 .The devour ability allows for much more maneuverability than Grimnak has and even gives the possibility of claiming the high ground or taking a glyph in the process of consuming the little commoner.

2. While the demon can kill common squad members effortlessly, it can only manage to destroy one per round (as opposed to Grimnak's potential two).

3. Thematically, I am not convinced that it's a demon but I'm fine with going for it.

4. I am quite curious to hear how it plays as clean up and how devastating it may be in that role.

1. He cannot Devour figures on glyphs.

2. I'm sure you meant once per turn, not round.

3. He's based on the Sandworms from Dune, and his name is an anagram for their Fremen name Shai-Hulud. Though the Fremen called them the "Old Man of the Desert," most non-natives referred to them as Demons.

4. Yeah, he's really meant to be am end-game unit. I cannot wait to do some testing and see how he performs. Others are welcome too!

[caps]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Caps part of the point of these guys is they have been imbued with a defensive ability by Jandar, does that notion in itself feel arbitrary to you?

Yes, I think it does. It feels more like you wanted them to have a special defensive power and decided that a blessing from Jandar was a good thematic defense for one. I just don't see it there.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by capsocrates

Yes, I think it does. It feels more like you wanted them to have a special defensive power and decided that a blessing from Jandar was a good thematic defense for one. I just don't see it there.

I guess I am just not following that you don't think having a defensive ability makes sense.

Is that how others also feel? Or that most are just against using the jandar dice for these figures ? And if the defensive ability was redone it could be justified?

[Soundwarp SG-1]

I don't have a problem with Jandar's Favor theme-wise personally. Plenty of units have powers that come from items their general gave them. If their supposed to be his 'elite guard' type guys it makes sense he would give them a little boost.

Having said that, dropping Jandar's Favor and adding a defense boost into Combat Prowess does seem more interesting to me.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

Is that how others also feel? Or that most are just against using the jandar dice for these figures ? And if the defensive ability was redone it could be justified?

Like I said, the package as a whole doesn't feel especially focused, but I'm not too bothered by it. Sometimes a unit just needs a bit of a boost.

[Ixe]

Originally Posted by MegaSilver

1. He cannot Devour figures on glyphs.

2. I'm sure you meant once per turn, not round.

3. He's based on the Sandworms from Dune, and his name is an anagram for their Fremen name Shai-Hulud. Though the Fremen called them the "Old Man of the Desert," most non-natives referred to them as Demons.

4. Yeah, he's really meant to be am end-game unit. I cannot wait to do some testing and see how he performs. Others are welcome too!

I was a little more rushed writing this one than I normally do these since I had to run somewhere. Probably should have just copied what I had and saved it for later. In any case:

1. I missed the part about glyphs. Oops. I was looking at the Devour ability and not looking at underground movement close enough to realize it specified empty spaces. Your wording is absolutely correct, but I just wonder if others will be prone to make the same mistake. Not sure if there is a great way to fix that without loading more text into Devour.

2. I absolutely meant once per turn. Didn't really have the chance to proof read it.

3. That sounds like a reasonable way to go for me. I'm not as familiar with Dune, so when I look at it I see Purple Worm from D&D which is very much not a demon. Then again, Mezzoloths are Yugoloths which are Neutral Evil outsiders and very much not Tanar'ri (by far the most abundant form of demons and demons typically refers exclusively to them), which are Chaotic Evil outsiders. Thus, I feel that there is some precedence for assigning races as demons that may not be explicitly demons.

4. Glad to hear my hunch was right on his intended role. I think he will prove to be a very strong choice for that spot. I'm cranking away on playtesting for my SoV application right now, but I'd be glad to run it in a game or two after I've worked through that.

[caps]

Originally Posted by Kinseth

I guess I am just not following that you don't think having a defensive ability makes sense.

There's some room for arbitrary abilities being justified by back-story, but this one doesn't have any flavor. If you'll allow me a little bit of hyperbole, its' a little bit like a power that says:

JANDAR'S FAVOR
When the Bladesmen roll defense dice they may use Jandar Valkyrie dice and roll 1 additional defense die.

There's no condition on it, so it has nothing to make it interesting and it comes across as a really bland power. Giving them 5 defense would have more-or-less the same effect without cluttering the card with a 3rd power. Alternatively, if you want the players' choices to affect the value, roll it in with COMBAT PROWESS.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by Ixe

Then again, Mezzoloths are Yugoloths which are Neutral Evil outsiders and very much not Tanar'ri (by far the most abundant form of demons and demons typically refers exclusively to them), which are Chaotic Evil outsiders. Thus, I feel that there is some precedence for assigning races as demons that may not be explicitly demons.

Mezzodemons (Mezzoloths) were Yugoloths in 3.x D&D (and perhaps earlier), but in 4th Edition (on which HS was based) they are honest-to-goodness demons.

I have to agree; I'd rather this worm wasn't a Demon. Just make up a race for it and let it be a monster.

[MegaSilver]

Originally Posted by Ixe

4. Glad to hear my hunch was right on his intended role. I think he will prove to be a very strong choice for that spot. I'm cranking away on playtesting for my SoV application right now, but I'd be glad to run it in a game or two after I've worked through that.

You're going to be a very tough competitor for that position!

Me and AU have already done a playtest, and other than the new wording I'm going to update his defense to 5 for further playtesting.