The Book of Zhen Yuan

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

So I can

1. "attack with Eagle Claw" before attacking normally, then
2. "attack with Eagle Claw" a second time (same figure) if there was a wound, then
3. attack normally with my normal attack (same or different figure)?

Or, is the Eagle Claw attack intended to be instead of the normal attack rather than before the normal attack?

I believe it is meant to be a conditional double attack, with the condition being that the target wasn’t destroyed (but wounded).

[Heroscaper 101]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

I believe it is meant to be a conditional double attack, with the condition being that the target wasn’t destroyed (but wounded).

You can use Eagle Claw, but you cannot use Whirlwind Assault to attack multiple figures. It is a risky move, but it is worth it if your wounded someone with low defense dice.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

I believe it is meant to be a conditional double attack, with the condition being that the target wasn’t destroyed (but wounded).

Originally Posted by Heroscaper 101

You can use Eagle Claw, but you cannot use Whirlwind Assault to attack multiple figures. It is a risky move, but it is worth it if your wounded someone with low defense dice.

I understand both of those points. My question is, since the unusual Eagle Claw conditional double attack happens "before attacking," do you also then make a normal attack after all that? Or, is the Eagle Claw stuff instead of your regular attack?

As far as I can tell, every other special power that does something "before attacking" still allows the normal attack to happen afterwards. I'm guessing Eagle Claw is supposed to be an exception to that, but that's just a guess. It's uncertain because it seems like there must be some reason why this is a "before attacking" effect, and the only reason that seems logical is that you still get a normal attack after Eagle Claw, like you still get a normal attack after all the other special powers that use this phrase.

Otherwise, why wouldn't it just skip the "choosing" part and say something like "When attacking with Zhen Yuan, if the targeted figure receives one or more wounds but is not destroyed, Zhen Yuan may attack the targeted figure one additional time. For the second attack, the chosen figure subtracts 1 from its defense dice for each wound received on the first attack. Zhen Yuan cannot attack using his Eagle Claw on the same turn he uses Whirlwind Assault." (That last sentence is already a wording convention in the canon.)

[Ronin]

I believe the point of the 'before attacking' clause is to get him to commit to either Eagle Claw or Whirlwind Assault before he attacks, and the Eagle Claw stuff is all supposed to replace your normal attack.

Your suggested version would let him attack a figure to see how that shakes out, then either go for the Whirlwind Assault or the follow-up Eagle Claw attack, depending on which was more advantageous.

I agree that the wording is a little confusing, though.

[Heroscaper 101]

Originally Posted by Ronin

I believe the point of the 'before attacking' clause is to get him to commit to either Eagle Claw or Whirlwind Assault before he attacks, and the Eagle Claw stuff is all supposed to replace your normal attack.

Your suggested version would let him attack a figure to see how that shakes out, then either go for the Whirlwind Assault or the follow-up Eagle Claw attack, depending on which was more advantageous.

I agree that the wording is a little confusing, though.

Just realized that if you inflict more wounds with Zhen Yuan Normal Attack, the defending figure rolls X fewer defense dice for every wound Zhen Yuan Normal Attack. Eagle Claw might be super effective against Charos or units with high defense.

[superfrog]

Ronin is right about the wording. We added the "choose a figure" phrase to force the decision between Whirlwind and Eagle Claw to come before the first attack.

Here's how it works in an example turn:

• Move.
• Decide to use Eagle Claw on a figure. ("Before attacking with Zhen Yuan, you may choose an opponent's figure to attack with Eagle Claw.")
• Attack that figure. (Note that Eagle Claw does not say "Roll 3 attack dice against the chosen figure" or anything similar. The normal attack is implied at this stage.)
• Attack that figure again, if your normal attack met the qualifications. ("If the chosen figure receives one or more wounds from Zhen Yuan but is not destroyed, Zhen Yuan may attack the chosen figure one additional time. For the second attack, the chosen figure subtracts 1 from its defense dice for each wound received on the first attack. You may not use Whirlwind Assault if you chose a figure for Eagle Claw this turn.")

[Just_a_Bill]

Thanks for the explanation. The "before" and "choose" language still seems unclear, and is different from other effects that require similar kinds of choices.

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

("Before attacking with Zhen Yuan, you may choose an opponent's figure to attack with Eagle Claw.")

So that actually helps show the problem: "before attacking, you may attack" seems to be describing some kind of special pre-attack. The issue is, what was intended isn't really before attacking, it is when you attack — or, it's probably more accurate to say that it really is instead of attacking with Whirlwind Assault.

As an analogy, if I say "before you go to Lowe's, go to Home Depot" there is clearly the implication that you will still go to Lowe's after HD. If I really wanted you to go to Lowe's instead of Home Depot, then I either need to structure it differently, by using an "instead of HD" structure or a "when choosing which store to go to" structure; or, afterwards I need to add something like "after going to Lowe's, do not go to Home Depot."

See how this is working structurally? It's a "before" that leaves the reader to guess whether he should assume the "before" really means "when" or "instead."

Whereas if the structure had been something like "when choosing an opponent's figure to attack, Zhen Yuan may use Eagle Claw" then it would have been clear that this is just an option to switch on when making a standard, vanilla attack. (Or course it would still need to end with a statement that you can't mix EC and WA.)

Again, thanks for the response. When a wording is unclear I always appreciate being able to find out what the design intent was.

[superfrog]

Right. I get the confusion. But it doesn't say "Before attacking with Zhen Yuan ... choose a figure and attack with Eagle Claw." It says "Before attacking with Zhen Yuan ... choose a figure to attack with Eagle Claw." The difference is subtle, but I think it's important.

You only choose the figure before attacking. You don't attack before attacking. It merely says to choose who to use Eagle Claw on before attacking, and then it tells you how to use Eagle Claw when you attack.

It might still be ambiguous, but it's not incorrect.

That said, feel free to make whatever edits you like before printing. As long as it plays the same, I'm sure nobody minds.

[Heroscaper 101]

I do hope this helps you understand Zhen Yuan, for the better.

"If you use Eagle Claw, then you cannot use Whirlwind Assault" only if you inflict damage. When you decide to use Eagle Claw but you do inflict no wounds, then your turn is over, even if there was another to use Whirlwind Assault, but you cannot attack if you decided to use Eagle Claw.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by superfrog

The difference is subtle, but I think it's important.

Too subtle for me, I have to admit. I would not have guessed that I was supposed to draw different conclusions based on and vs. to.

Originally Posted by superfrog

It might still be ambiguous, but it's not incorrect.

So ambiguous is ... acceptable? I guess I'll never be able to wrap my head around that. But it's cool; like I said, now I know the intent. Thanks again.

[Scytale]

As Editors we had a number of somewhat conflicting conditions to fulfill with this design.

1. Eagle Claw is multiple normal attacks.
2. Whirlwind Assault is multiple normal attacks.
3. Eagle Claw and Whirlwind Assault cannot be used together.
4. The player cannot first make a normal attack, then decide whether he was using Eagle Claw or Whirlwind Assault based on the result.
5. Whirlwind Assault is an existing power with specific wording.
6. Only so much text can fit on a card.

Making Eagle Claw "instead of" an attack doesn't work, because it needs to be a pair of normal attacks. It also doesn't work to just say he can attack the figure a second time because of condition #4. Our solution was to force players to choose an Eagle Claw target before attacking. The "to" is as important as superfrog noted, as is the fact that it isn't a special attack or have any sort of rules for how it would function as some sort of pre-attack. Eagle Claw is nothing but what the text has written, which is a chance at a second attack.

Personally I wasn't keen on this design because of that confusing interaction, but the rest of the IS was ok with it. I think we did the best we could given the constraints we were given.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by Scytale

4. The player cannot first make a normal attack, then decide whether he was using Eagle Claw or Whirlwind Assault based on the result.

So this brings up a new question. Let's forget that Eagle Claw exists for the moment...

Are you saying that when any figure uses Whirlwind Assault, it has to declare in advance exactly which targets it will be choosing? If so, where would I find that clarification? I don't see it in the FAQ (13.4 is the latest I have), or in the R&Cs for Raelin #2, Zhen Yuan, or Chen Tang. The "Roll each attack separately" suggests to me that you decide as you go, and in checking around this morning I haven't been able to find anything that would say otherwise. Maybe I've missed it somewhere, but this would seem to be a problem with things like rats that can change who the candidates for WA would even be.

Would it make sense to say that you have to decide whether you are or are not using EC before you make the first attack, and then if you chose not to use EC, then after that first attack you decide whether you are or are not using WA? Or do you have to commit to using or not using WA before you roll for your first attack? And if the latter, are you committing to the specific targets, or just committing to choose at least one additional target if possible?

And regardless of the answer, where would I find a ruling I can refer to?

Anyway, this is getting more confusing the further I delve into it, so if we can just clarify how Whirlwind Assault is supposed to work in general then I'll stop worrying about how Zhen Yuan works in particular.

Thanks for helping me make sense of this.