The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Pumpkin_King]

That doesn’t really seem like it makes sense given the theme, especially when the standard restrictions of clear sight are pretty easy.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

I just posted Jed in the SoV submission thread, but it's looking like the current design won't work. I discussed it with Pumpkin_King, and I have a reworked design that I'm looking for feedback on.

To highlight the changes, Outlaw Ambush now requires Jedidiah to have line of sight to any enemy that is attacked during the turn provided by Outlaw Ambush.

A lot of bonding abilities require line of sight to the figure that is activated, but it is rare that the bonding is limited instead by line of sight to the enemy. I think it's thematically fitting. Jedidiah is saying "hey there's someone right there, get em". This also makes positioning Jedidiah throughout the game more interesting, and opens up a lot of counter play. I think I'll have to drop his points a bit as a result, but I'm not sure by how much just yet.

A few Suggestions, take'em or leave em

1. Black bullet - I would up the stakes to make it more interesting 3X Skulls or -3 Defense for the remainder, however I would have the X order marker be permanently removed from the game. That way if you use Black bullet no more Ambush.

2. I would actually suggest instead of a normal turn why not crib off Clayton:

Outlaw Ambush
At the end of the round, you may reveal the X order marker on Jedidiah Mulroney, and take a turn with up to 3 other Outlaw Heroes you control. Heroes taking a turn with Outlaw Ambush must be within 4(?) clear sight spaces of Jedidiah and may not move normally during that turn.

OR hell, just add Shootout.

[Scytale]

Line of sight does help a lot, but I'm not a fan of line of sight to the enemy figure. For one, that is easy to do at a long distance on most maps. But mostly it just feels like being different for the sake of being different. Thematically I don't feel like it's any better either; I think it's more imporant that Jedidiah knows who he's ordering around.

I also suspect the unit may feel unrewarding. Having to have the 'X' on the unit taking the extra turn is dangerous. When there is no bluff marker, all figures with unrevealed order markers make good targets, so it's even more likely to lose turns.

This is what I would do to make the figure more dynamic and rewarding:

OUTLAW AMBUSH
At the end of each round, if at least one of your revealed Order Markers is on an Outlaw Hero, you may reveal the 'X' Order Marker on Jedidiah Mulroney to take a turn with Jedidiah or another Outlaw Hero you control within 8 clear sight spaces of Jedidiah.

[quozl]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

That doesn’t really seem like it makes sense given the theme, especially when the standard restrictions of clear sight are pretty easy.

What is the theme?

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by wriggz

A few Suggestions, take'em or leave em

1. Black bullet - I would up the stakes to make it more interesting 3X Skulls or -3 Defense for the remainder, however I would have the X order marker be permanently removed from the game. That way if you use Black bullet no more Ambush.

2. I would actually suggest instead of a normal turn why not crib off Clayton:

Outlaw Ambush
At the end of the round, you may reveal the X order marker on Jedidiah Mulroney, and take a turn with up to 3 other Outlaw Heroes you control. Heroes taking a turn with Outlaw Ambush must be within 4(?) clear sight spaces of Jedidiah and may not move normally during that turn.

OR hell, just add Shootout.

So Pumpkin King tried to put this design through the SoV themselves a couple years ago, and the biggest roadblock at the time was Black Bullet being too strong. It was at +6, and at least 3 judges said that was too high for various reason, even for a once per game ability. PK very strongly wanted the ability to be "roll a ton of dice, because rolling a ton of dice is fun, but relatively rare in HeroScape". The push back at the time lead to PK giving up on submitting the design, until I asked if I could work with it. I understand that you were not in that conversation at the time, but it is ironic and frustrating to hear essentially the exact opposite suggestion from you.

1. If I understand correctly, you are suggesting that instead of +4 dice, make the ability a better version of Deadly shot, where each skull is worth 3 skulls. That would indeed be potent, but it breaks the intended purpose of rolling a ton of dice. Removing the X from play, while an interesting idea, also doesn't really make sense thematically. Why would Jedidiah just stop ordering people around? It also makes the Black bullet even more of a "red haring" as you described it before, because you loose every ability on the card, and he becomes a worse and more expensive Garrett Burns, and Garrett burns isn't very good to begin with.

2. A shootout like ability is not a bad idea. I personally was trying not to copy Clayton, but I'm not opposed to the idea, if PK and the other SoV judges are open to it.

Originally Posted by Scytale

Line of sight does help a lot, but I'm not a fan of line of sight to the enemy figure. For one, that is easy to do at a long distance on most maps. But mostly it just feels like being different for the sake of being different. Thematically I don't feel like it's any better either; I think it's more imporant that Jedidiah knows who he's ordering around.

I also suspect the unit may feel unrewarding. Having to have the 'X' on the unit taking the extra turn is dangerous. When there is no bluff marker, all figures with unrevealed order markers make good targets, so it's even more likely to lose turns.

This is what I would do to make the figure more dynamic and rewarding:

OUTLAW AMBUSH
At the end of each round, if at least one of your revealed Order Markers is on an Outlaw Hero, you may reveal the 'X' Order Marker on Jedidiah Mulroney to take a turn with Jedidiah or another Outlaw Hero you control within 8 clear sight spaces of Jedidiah.

I did suggest the version of Outlaw Ambush that are suggesting here, but we thought that forcing Jedidiah to put himself into clear sight of enemy figures was more interesting, and was less likely to allow him to hide behind a ruin the whole game.

Having the X on the figure taking the turn is indeed dangerous. I saw that as a good thing, since it kept Jedidiah's power level in check. All Outlaws have low defense, and any low defense card with an order marker is already a good target, even before Jedidiah is in play. This doesn't really change that. That said, I don't really mind leaving the X on Jedidiah, it just seems like the safer way to design it, and typically the safer way is less interesting, requires less commitment, and less decision making.

Originally Posted by quozl

What is the theme?

The intended theme was to make an Outlaw leader. If Jedidiah only worked with himself, he wouldn't really be a leader.

[quozl]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

The intended theme was to make an Outlaw leader. If Jedidiah only worked with himself, he wouldn't really be a leader.

As anyone who watches movies about bad guys knows, every bad guy is out for himself and any bad guy leader ends up either dead or by himself at the end. if you don't have betrayal in there, you miss the bad guy leader theme IMO.

[wriggz]

I personally like bolt of witherwood and braxas, as well as Krug and macdirks so take my preference for black bullet being dangerous with a grain of salt.

As for shootout/modified ambush go with what you think as best. I don't mind a kato type figure, but I prefer Jeb encouraging a bunch of out laws to move up rather than just one.

Just be careful to not price Garrett out of the market.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by quozl

As anyone who watches movies about bad guys knows, every bad guy is out for himself and any bad guy leader ends up either dead or by himself at the end. if you don't have betrayal in there, you miss the bad guy leader theme IMO.

Okay, sure, but just because they are out for themselves, doesn't mean they benefit from not bonding with Jedidiah, or that Jedidiah benefits from never letting them do anything. In a Game HeroScape, unless you have a Sir Hawthorne ability to swap teams, that betrayal angle isn't going to be very easy to implement.

[wriggz]

Originally Posted by Leaf_It

Okay, sure, but just because they are out for themselves, does mean they benefit from not bonding with Jedidiah, or that Jedidiah benefitrs from never letting them do anything. In a Game HeroScape, unless you have a Sir Hawthorne ability to swap teams, that betrayal angle isn't going to be very easy to implement.

I made my entire faction of pirates function like this with revealing om placement wounding frienly figures and not taking a turn.

[Shiftrex]

Villian-ish style betrayal usually happens after the job is done... away from a good guys vs bad guys situation unless there is a big motivator or we are doing saturday morning cartoon stuff. FWIW, a betrayal mechanic could also include this guy just 'leaving the board's if he us the only unit you control. Also thematic and fitting for someone that plays the long game without delusions or reasons to support standing to the last man.

Doesnt cribbing off clayton just make them very samey? Outlaws have their own designs right now, would be cool to find a way to keep that design language a little distinct from the lawmen.

FWIW, ambush is a term used in modern, and western tactics, that is more commonly used to kick off an encounter. Maybe they could have an X marker turn / effect / shoot out thing happen if the win initiative and have it trigger before anyone reveals order Marker 1. So they need to establish an advantage to get an Ambush. Just a thought but that would be quite thematic.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by wriggz

I made my entire faction of pirates function like this with revealing om placement wounding frienly figures and not taking a turn.

That sounds very fun and interesting. If I was making the Outlaw Faction from scratch, this would be a very compelling thematic direction. I am only working on 1 design though.

Shiftrex makes a very good point though. Outlaw betrayal isn't likely to happen during the fight, where doing so would only get themselves caught, or killed.

Leaving if Jedidiah is the only figure left is a compelling way of adding that theme, and it doesn't take away from anything else in the design.

I'm not sure that's the right direction though. No other Outlaw has an ability that pushes this theme, so why does Jedidiah need to? Yeah, it's an interesting aspect of Outlaws that would have been neat, but this is an established faction, we're not making it from the ground up. Call it a missed opportunity, but that's on the designers of the first few Outlaws.

Everyone seems to want to pull this design in different directions, some of which require drastic reworks. I'm not doing that. This design has existed for literal years, and I liked it that whole time. I'm not looking to make a new design. I'm looking to adjust the design as little as possible, changing only what I must change to address the concerns of the judges.

[wriggz]

Yeah, I think one big attack + activate other outlaws on x order makers is a fine design direction. My push back was minor and mostly echoes Scytales direction of pushing Jeb up the board.