Sir Heroscape's customs

[TREX]

Originally Posted by superfrog

I've played against the shadows (in various versions that are similar to the current one) a few times. I do agree with Sir H that they haven't performed nearly as well as you might think they would. I'm not sure the optimal build has been hit on just yet, though.

I had agreed above for the same reason. I got to play against him at his place when I was up visiting inlaws. We had discussed them a bit. I didnt know what to expect but won quite handily. Which is wierd. Sir H tends to win most of the times I play him. Ive got 2 wins total against him ever I think. Im liking the shadows. Particularly the demons and hounds. I didnt have the pleasure of fighting the wraiths. Ill vouch that this faction isnt op in its current state. It is developing quite well and anticipate how it turns out. For the binder, you could limit moving the same figures with them once a round if worried about chain grabbing.

[Unhinged Manchild]

Originally Posted by TREX

I agree with you sir H. They seem like they are more scary than they are. Its partially the fault of how BA the models look. Especially those demons and hounds. I really like your progress your making with these guys and I dont think they need any nerfing.

+1

Even in the savage beat down of my zombies, I didn't see anything worrisome from the Shadows (save the Binder grab, which I believe is in a much better spot at this time.)

At my first glance, I believe Wraith is the worst, and I wouldn't add it to my Xundar army unless I knew there were some sort of forced "must have X amount of heroes" scenario going on. Was there ever a consideration to allow this to affect any figure, instead of just unique heroes? Does that break too far from the Shades' ability (or maybe from the Shadows' theme) to be comfy with?

I think the other 3 shadows are much better suited to most standard Heroscape games. Occasionally, I do wish the demons had a small range on their special attack, because I just get this gut feeling that this army needs something that can do damage at more than range 1, but perhaps that's just me being wishful/stupid/picky.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by brandonwiker

Occasionally, I do wish the demons had a small range on their special attack, because I just get this gut feeling that this army needs something that can do damage at more than range 1, but perhaps that's just me being wishful/stupid/picky.

I've actually taken this into heavy consideration. I may start toying with the idea...but we'll see. It actually makes some good sense if I were to do it I'd probably call it "Shadow Swoop Special Attack" leave the current mechanic but give it a range of 2 or 3. That way they could be more of a strike force and give a little more variety to what the Shadows can do. It would also be interesting because you'd have to decide if you wanted to stay unengaged or engage anyway to buff other hounds or other demons.

[Sir Heroscape]

Shadow Playtest (Current versions in the OP)
#12.

Map: Iconoclast (no glyphs)
SirH: Xundar, Raelin, Isamu, Binders X2, Demons X3, Hounds X3
vs
All Your Pie: Rygarn, Guilty, Vulcanmechs, Dividers X4

Survived:
Rygarn (full), Guilty (1 wound), 5 Dividers
Isamu (Conceded the game with just Isamu left)

Special abilities
- Tentacle Grab: 0/1
- Hunting: 2/5 successfully wounded
- Demon SA: 3/7 successfully wounded (had buffed attacks 3 times, 2 of which were successful)
- Xundar's SA "summoning" activated 2/6

Summary
All the action was in the center. I rolled up Binder, Hound, Demon and sent in Raelin in a nice spot where only 1 attacker could get at her. I held a pretty strong position and did pretty well getting all my shadows developed, but numbers quickly started to overwhelm me. I was taking care of the Dividers well enough, but a few failed kills and a few key divides kept a coupld of his marro in Xundar's face and slowly putting wounds on him, even when backed by Raelin. The big problem was when the Vulcanmechs came out. I was handling Dividers well enough, but those guys started popping off shots on Xundar and torching my shadows. Luckily AYP took a risk and put them on lava height to try and finish of Xundar, who heroically survived. I was then able to send in shadows to engage and keep them preoccupied while locking them on lava. They ended up burning up with no further activations on them. At the end it was Xundar and Raelin side-by-side facing down the dividers and not getting to bring back shadows very easily was a real killer. I basically lost turns and by the time I started bringing back some hounds, Xundar was too far gone and fell pretty fast.

Thoughts
After this game, I think I may want to try his special at 5R 4Att. I did not like how easy it was to blank with or defend against his special, and failing to bring back a shadow really , in essence was conceding the game right there. I think when Shadows become scarce, it's going to be important to have a good chance of brining some back, otherwise the game will basically be over if for this faction.

*IMPORTANT NOTES*
I've slightly altered a couple things. I upped Xundar to 150pts and dropped the binders to 25pts. I felt that Xundar as the crux of this faction is doing a lot and in fact should be priced like so. As for the Binder, the Binders are good and bad at times. They are great for positioning and helping buff your next 2 attacks but you essentially give up an attack/kill when you do because they are so weak when they attack. They make it more likely to kill, but not as strong as getting another turn with a hound or demon. As evidenced in this game, I only tried binding once because I didn't really need them outside of that because I needed number of quality attacks during this game, if I wanted a comeback.

Also note, I'm testing out an alternate version of the Demon as seen below. The ONLY change is the name of the SA and the range to said special. One of the downsides of this army is that it gets really congested and clogged due to all then adjacent unit synergies. By adding a small, short-range special with the demons actually does a lot for this builds versatility and potency. It also helps open up a lot of options because you now have a little bit of range to help you out, and give you a little more freedom. That said, it is here that I'd like some help. WHAT SHOULD THE NAME BE? I'm at a loss right now for a cool "swoopy-type" "dive-bombing esk" name for the demon and I'd also like to get your thoughts on the Range. Is 3 good or would 2 be more appropriate. Also, I've considered that maybe the special should act like Badru Pounce in that they take the position of the previous destroyed defender? Ideas welcome!

Alternative Demon Card

Spoiler Alert!

[All Your Pie]

While I suspect that 4A on the special will make him a bit too consistent of an endgame threat, I think it's worth testing to see if that's actually the case or not. As for the demons, I like 3 range on the special enough that I don't care much about the theme one way or the other. The ability for demons to attack at short ranges is established by the mezzos, and it isn't hard for me to imagine the shadow demons manifesting a short-range bolt or the like.

[bmon]

I've wanted to see 4A on Xundar's special since its inception. 3A seems too weak and inconsistent for him. It's nice to provide more incentive to attack with him rather than 3 potential shadows.

[Sir Heroscape]

Shadow Playtest (Current versions in the OP)
#13.

Map: Blacktop Lodin/Dagmar
600pt Armies
SirH: Xundar, Raelin, Isamu, Binders X3, Demons X3, Hounds X4, Wraith X1
vs
All Your Pie: Rygarn, KTN, Varja, Nagrubs X3, B-11

Survived:
Rygarn (2 wounds), KTN (3 wounds), 4 Nagrubs, 2 B-11's

Special abilities
- Tentacle Grab: 2/6
- Hunting: 2/3 successfully wounded (one of the attacks got 3 wounds on KTN)
- Demon SA: 3/9 successfully wounded
- Xundar's SA "summoning" activated 0/0
- Manipulation: 1/3 (got KTN and able to kill 1 B-11 and move KTN back to the SZ)

Summary
This game the Shadows actually performed pretty well despite the poor activation on their abilities. They were able to put wounds quick and early on the heroes, gain and hold map control and get buffed attacks. Honestly, things were going all good, especially after I had clustered all the shadows in Raelin's Aura by end round and controlled the center highest point. I had just manipulated KTN, gotten him out of my face and leaped him into the SZ while killing 1 B-11. This put me in a great position, but a quick, outside assassination run paid off and the 2 B-11's put 4 wounds on Xundar Turn 3 at the end of the round. AYP then won initiative (of course) made quick work of Xundar...losing a full round for me. Shadows had to play alone and ended up of the Varja and a couple nagrubs, but that was it.

Thoughts
Not much to be said other than I'm still testing out the "alternate" version for the Demon and Xundar. The Demon has the special attack at range 3, and it is working really nicely, so I think for now I'm going to keep it that way. Xundar still needs testing at his power level, so that's the main focus...more on these later.

[Sir Heroscape]

NEW VERSIONS
After MANY playtests with some different iterations of abilities, I've landed on the following.
Notable Changes:
-Xundar price increased to 150.
-Xundar SA Range decreased to 5, but Attack increased to 4. I found that the shorter range keeps him from kiting, but it's also more rewarding to try and Shadow Cast. Typically you're dead or dying anyway by the time you give up a turn with Shadows to Shadow Cast so I want to make it a higher reward.
- Binder's price moved to 25. The Binders sole purpose is to position figures for other units. Doing so limits the attack output because there no guarantee of a successful grab and an attack of 2 at same level is pretty weak. Binder's have killed maybe 2-3 squad figures in the 14+ playtests I've done with them.
-Wraith ability to allow EITHER an attack OR the temporary control. Before you could attack and Soul Manipulate, but the current iteration keeps that under control by only allowing one or the other to occur
-Demon move increased to 7. After a ton of discussion, play testing and working through thematic problems and mechanics I've decided to keep the Demons where they are but increase their move. Their role in the army is to truly be the shock troops, coming in for the kill. 6 move was nice, but 7 allows them a higher level of mobility to free up the utility of these units as a whole.

Testing will continue with the current versions. I'm feeling like these guys are getting closer and closer. the abilities feel pretty well nailed down, now just to test out their power level and make sure they're in the right spot. Comments welcome.

[Sir Heroscape]

I've got a couple designs here I'm preparing that will work with some future C3V releases. Hoping to get working on these at the same time in order to help flesh out some of those new units.


This guy is easily one of the coolest and scariest miniatures I've seen. I'm totally pumped about his potential.


I'm not convinced Attack bonding is the way to go just yet. Buccaneers don't hold up long in engagements so I'm not sure that that ability would actually be that useful, whereas movement bonding could be very useful in getting the buccaneers into position while he takes a couple pot shots and drinks his beer. Hmmm....I'll have to think about that.

[TREX]

Originally Posted by Sir Heroscape

I've got a couple designs here I'm preparing that will work with some future C3V releases. Hoping to get working on these at the same time in order to help flesh out some of those new units.


This guy is easily one of the coolest and scariest miniatures I've seen. I'm totally pumped about his potential.


I'm not convinced Attack bonding is the way to go just yet. Buccaneers don't hold up long in engagements so I'm not sure that that ability would actually be that useful, whereas movement bonding could be very useful in getting the buccaneers into position while he takes a couple pot shots and drinks his beer. Hmmm....I'll have to think about that.

I feel ygorl is really strong even for 150pts. Hes essentially a cheerleader giving his adjacent buddies a defense boost. Hes also a tank at 6 life 5 attack 5 defense. The kicker really is that he cant be shot at. Being a large figure that looks more brutish with the tank like stats doesnt suggest some tricky little thing that shapeshifts out of the way. The paralyzing stare works well with him getting to engage before being attacked. But having the card in a whole I think its a little too much.

Jacob the pirate is an interesting idea to bond with the buccaneers of tortuga. As someone thats both a pirate fan and a fan of alcholic beverages I would like to point out that he is probably having ale or rum, for the name of the power. Also Ive had more than my share of beer in my life and its never healed me not once. Something more interesting could come from that. I could see the beer giving him an extra attack but also wounding him. Alcohol general numbs your pain but you feel it the next morning. Really like how the shadow faction is turning out. They look like they are coming along.

[Sir Heroscape]

Originally Posted by TREX

I feel ygorl is really strong even for 150pts. Hes essentially a cheerleader giving his adjacent buddies a defense boost. Hes also a tank at 6 life 5 attack 5 defense. The kicker really is that he cant be shot at. Being a large figure that looks more brutish with the tank like stats doesnt suggest some tricky little thing that shapeshifts out of the way. The paralyzing stare works well with him getting to engage before being attacked. But having the card in a whole I think its a little too much.

Jacob the pirate is an interesting idea to bond with the buccaneers of tortuga. As someone thats both a pirate fan and a fan of alcholic beverages I would like to point out that he is probably having ale or rum, for the name of the power. Also Ive had more than my share of beer in my life and its never healed me not once. Something more interesting could come from that. I could see the beer giving him an extra attack but also wounding him. Alcohol general numbs your pain but you feel it the next morning. Really like how the shadow faction is turning out. They look like they are coming along.

Yeah, you're probably right about Ygorl. I think Def 4 would be more appropriate because of the ability to be incorporeal. As for the theme of it, he's not a tricky figure that shifts in and out, it's more that he's an Incorporeal Demon but only take shape/holds substance when he's engaged in combat. He becomes corporeal in order to fight.

For Jacob...you're probably right about the Rum/Ale. "Draft of Rum" does that work? I feel like Rum is a more pirate drink. I'll admit, your insight is useful here...you're probably right that healing from drinking is not the right theme. What do you think would be a fun, unique application of the rum? Maybe it could even just be a negative ability?

[caps]

Flintlocks take forever to reload. Scytale implemented one by allowing it to be used only once a round. Why on earth does this flintlock fire twice a turn??