Trolling?

[kolakoski]

Well met!

I recently posted some of my opinions in Politics, Religion, and Morality. Superfrog posted this in reply: "Bro this thread has been dormant for a decade, I’m not sure what your point of necro-ing it is." The implication is clear: That expressing one's opinion on "Politics, Religion, and Morality" is on its face trolling.

I reject that idea totally. Rather, I ask what it says about our Community that, given the awful political environment, including the very real threat to democracy itself in this country, there has been no discussion about it. From Religious Debate for or against HS: "Where to begin . . . the following is in no way to be viewed, read, or interpreted as an attack on anyone regardless of how guilty it may make one's conscience." Maybe this disclaimer would have made a difference to Superfrog. In any event, discussions of morality/politics within a religious/Christian context have not been characterized as "trolling."

I have been recently watching the TV series "Kung Fu." The idea of revenge is addressed often:

Amos Buchanan: IF I CAN'T HAVE VENGEANCE WHO CAN?
Kwai Chang Caine: No one.

"'Vengeance is a water vessel with a hole. It carries nothing but the promise of emptiness.' -Master Po
'Shall I then repay injury always with kindness?' -Young Caine
'Repay injury with justice and forgiveness, but kindness always with kindness.'" -Po

"To hate is like drinking salt water. The thirst grows worst." -Caine

"Hate is the tomb you weave. It will not save you from your suffering." -Caine

I am troubled, not merely by the words and deeds of Trump and the MAGA extremists, but also by our past and current words and actions, as a country and as a people. We have become inured to violence, vengeance and dehumanization, and we have historically embraced them to deal with Native Americans, and Asian, brown and black people, immigrants, former slaves and their descendants, within and outside our borders, as well as in our mean spirited entertainment, resulting in continuing demagoguery, bigotry, and hatred.

Heroscape is a tactical wargame. Its violence is mitigated, in my mind, by its taking place in Valhalla, where all those killed on a particular day are revived on the next. However, it could be argued that it glorifies violence - and that its players are more likely than not to support, or at the least ignore, the violence on one or more sides in, for example, the Israeli/Palestinian conflict, let alone that advocated against political opponents by our former President. Thus far, the lack of discussion on these subjects supports that view.

[Tornado]

Honestly I think most of those type of discussions probably now take place on Discord.
It is a bummer. Used to be able to talk sports, religion, politics, global warming etc. as well as gaming stuff here which was really unique.

[Dysole]

Originally Posted by Tornado

Honestly I think most of those type of discussions probably now take place on Discord.
It is a bummer. Used to be able to talk sports, religion, politics, global warming etc. as well as gaming stuff here which was really unique.

Politics discourse got banned on the Heroscape server because it became too toxic for conversation. To be honest, that seems to be the case for a lot of the discourse in that realm all across the internet.

~Dysole, informationally

[IAmBatman]

This thread doesn't seem to really have anything to do with Heroscape as a game itself, but more seems to be asking questions about the community, so I'm moving it here to Scapers Online.

I, for the most part, don't see value in fighting with people online that are otherwise my friends, and discussions in politics seem to end there more often than not, so I prefer to avoid it. Those close to me in my real life know my views and I vote my conscience. I don't think I have any responsibility to discuss these things within the context of a board game.

[IAmBatman]

For the purposes of the community side of this, I'm not seeing where anyone but the OP in this thread brought up the word "trolling" and it seems disingenuous and unfair to put those words in Superfrog's mouth. I patently disagree that this was his subtext in that post.

[superfrog]

I will say that I have appreciated dialogues on these lines on the site in the past, and I’d be open to those again.

My main problem with your earlier post was that it was neither a response to anything specific nor an invitation to discuss. It was merely a set of propositions. Asking questions is a much better way to open up a conversation.

And yes, I never said you were trolling.

[Unhinged Manchild]

Huh, I remember seeing that post and I didn't think much of any of it altogether. Unfort everything seems super polarizing nowadays. Very few shared ideals, I suppose, but I always love a good religious/political/philosophical discussion.

"words and deeds of Trump and the MAGA extremists"
"inured to...dehumanization"

I see what you did there. Using labels to dehumanize people is satisfying, eh?

"deal with Native Americans, and Asian, brown and black people, immigrants, former slaves and their descendants"

My understanding: "Slaves" were originally sold by their own leaders/kin in Africa to the US. I really hate gubmint involvement with this nonsense; I sure as heck don't owe any "slave descendants" a dime. The fact that the gubmint thinks that I, someone that has committed no crime against those people, owes these descendants, who have faced no slavery nor hardship from my actions, is utterly laughable and approaches "Orwellian" IMO. What kind of system of justice holds an innocent person responsible for imaginary damage to a person that has not had a crime even committed against them? Apparently the US' system, lul.

Native Americans didn't maintain a force strong enough to keep their standard of life/liberty, so yeah, one may be metaphorically "boned" when one doesn't have the bigger stick than the other party despite what a piece of paper says. A harsh reality, one that I don't personally love, but I didn't write the rules of life so it is what it is.

"...continuing demagoguery, bigotry, and hatred."

More labels. The only bigotry and hatred I see is that Lebron James and Oprah are millionaires while I'm not (/s because this probably won't be so evident...) Everyone is biased in some fashion, let them be. One would hope that the public/free market would drown idiots out long before they become too influential, although I think the US is well beyond that point. But, IMO better this way than some regime/gubmint deciding our biases for us (like the books say about 1930s-40s Germany?) I think the US has been really pushing into bad territory with things along these lines - the whole "DIE" initiative (appears to be gubmint-wide based on things I hear and see) scares me right to heX and back.

That I may contract with people based on mutual consent yet decline to do so with certain other people, even for something as silly as a tattoo or eye color; is this not liberty?

--------------
Alas, I've noticed many of my posts being edited or deleted by admins on this site, and generally on many sites especially since ~2020. So much for the free exchange of ideas. I just spent a couple of minutes trying to reign in this powerful post (I'm sure I used what some consider "strong language") in an effort to not be censored again. It's pretty unfortunate, but you can't really go to sites which are made for a specific thing (Heroscape, "name video game here," etc) and talk about things outside of that specific item. P much gotta find that exact religion/political/philosophical forum and do those things there.

Perhaps it's better that way, idk. Do I think it is? No.

[Tornado]

Heroscape was a place where you could talk about non Heroscape subjects in a civil way because we had such a great community.
The fact that politics got banned on the Heroscape Discord just reinforces my point about how unique this site once was.
Unfortunately that time has ended.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

"[T]he following is in no way to be viewed, read, or interpreted as an attack on anyone . . . ."

Originally Posted by Dysole

Politics discourse got banned on the Heroscape server because it became too toxic for conversation. To be honest, that seems to be the case for a lot of the discourse in that realm all across the internet.

~Dysole, informationally

This I did not know. Unfortunate. I apologize.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

This thread doesn't seem to really have anything to do with Heroscape as a game itself, but more seems to be asking questions about the community, so I'm moving it here to Scapers Online.

I, for the most part, don't see value in fighting with people online that are otherwise my friends, and discussions in politics seem to end there more often than not, so I prefer to avoid it. Those close to me in my real life know my views and I vote my conscience. I don't think I have any responsibility to discuss these things within the context of a board game.

I hear you. I'm not certain I agree. "If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" implies some sort of responsibility. "Everything is political" implies that not taking responsibility in any context is a political act. The Activist's Argument (Everything is Political) - Only a Game contains an interesting discussion about this.

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

For the purposes of the community side of this, I'm not seeing where anyone but the OP in this thread brought up the word "trolling" and it seems disingenuous and unfair to put those words in Superfrog's mouth. I patently disagree that this was his subtext in that post.

"I will say that I have appreciated dialogues on these lines on the site in the past, and I’d be open to those again.

"My main problem with your earlier post was that it was neither a response to anything specific nor an invitation to discuss. It was merely a set of propositions. Asking questions is a much better way to open up a conversation.

"And yes, I never said you were trolling." ~ Superfrog

"Asking questions is a much better way to open up a conversation." You are undoubtedly correct. I am, for whatever reason, reminded about a meme I saw about a wife talking to her husband and finally saying, "you never listen to me," and his reply being "that's an odd way to start a conversation." I concede that, as my sensei often said of my behavior in the past, I was "acting out." I did say that I was "troubled." When Trump was elected President, I had to "step away from the computer" as my blood pressure rose unhealthily. When Biden was elected, it felt safe to reengage. Now I am often more frightened even than I was then about what has been happening. I am leaving for Negril, Jamaica for six weeks (annual vacation) and will endeavor to disconnect from electronics and politics while I'm gone. Historically, my blood pressure goes from upwards of 140 before I leave to around 117 upon my return. Some of that is because of more healthy, natural food and living, of course, but some, I am convinced, is the general disconnect from modern life.

I have over the course of my life "drunk the Kool-aid" in a number of contexts. As a Christian fundamentalist until I was 21, I believed I knew what everyone should do and believe, and proselytization to "save" everyone was my personal responsibility. I have struggled with being judgmental and proselytizing ever since. I believed President Reagan when he spoke of the need for "triage" in an economic context. During the crack years here in NYC, I fantasized about having a delayed-poisoned needle-ring to tap all the drug dealers openly dealing while the cops, undoubtedly overwhelmed, ignored them. I saw a ragged man I assumed was on drugs fall onto the tracks in a subway and did nothing, leaving it to others to rescue him. I had no sympathy for drug dealers or users - or myself. I was a poor, bitter young man.

Since then, a lot of water under the bridge. 33 years of marriage to a wonderful black woman and over 25 years of practicing traditional Japanese Karate have had a profound effect. My proselytizing over the last few decades has been mostly about swimming and Karate - and kindness as a first principle.

"Bro this thread has been dormant for a decade, I’m not sure what your point of necro-ing it is." ~ Superfrog I did not mean to be "disingenuous and unfair" or "to put those words in Superfrog's mouth." I said, "The implication is clear: That expressing one's opinion on "Politics, Religion, and Morality" is on its face trolling." I am more than willing to entertain the idea that I was mistaken.

And then there is Unhinged Manchild's post . . .

[kolakoski crawls back under the covers.]

[IAmBatman]

If you feel it’s trolling, that’s your assessment. No one else has made that assessment.

It seems your desire to engage in political discourse wilts as soon as you’re met with someone with strongly opposing viewpoints (Unhinged Manchild). Honestly, probably the right call for your blood pressure, but it underscores my initial point.

I’m not saying political discussions shouldn’t be had or even that they shouldn’t be had here. I’m saying I’ve seen this movie, I know how it ends, and I’m personally not interested in doing it here. If you feel that makes me part of the problem, so be it, but that sounds an awful lot like proselytizing to me.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

If you feel it’s trolling, that’s your assessment. No one else has made that assessment.

It seems your desire to engage in political discourse wilts as soon as you’re met with someone with strongly opposing viewpoints (Unhinged Manchild). Honestly, probably the right call for your blood pressure, but it underscores my initial point.

I’m not saying political discussions shouldn’t be had or even that they shouldn’t be had here. I’m saying I’ve seen this movie, I know how it ends, and I’m personally not interested in doing it here. If you feel that makes me part of the problem, so be it, but that sounds an awful lot like proselytizing to me.

Hoist on my own pitard, eh? Very well, I shall answer Unhinged Manchild within the quote below, in red.

Originally Posted by Unhinged Manchild

Huh, I remember seeing that post and I didn't think much of any of it altogether. Unfort everything seems super polarizing nowadays. Very few shared ideals, I suppose, but I always love a good religious/political/philosophical discussion.

"words and deeds of Trump and the MAGA extremists"
"inured to...dehumanization"

I see what you did there. Using labels to dehumanize people is satisfying, eh?

"Hate the sin; love the sinner." Being "troubled" by what they say and do does not dehumanize them. If, by "using labels," you mean referring to them as "extremists" is dehumanizing, I disagree. Referring to people as "vermin" is.

"deal with Native Americans, and Asian, brown and black people, immigrants, former slaves and their descendants"

My understanding: "Slaves" were originally sold by their own leaders/kin in Africa to the US. I really hate gubmint involvement with this nonsense; I sure as heck don't owe any "slave descendants" a dime. The fact that the gubmint thinks that I, someone that has committed no crime against those people, owes these descendants, who have faced no slavery nor hardship from my actions, is utterly laughable and approaches "Orwellian" IMO. What kind of system of justice holds an innocent person responsible for imaginary damage to a person that has not had a crime even committed against them? Apparently the US' system, lul.

How is the government "think[ing] that [you], someone that has committed no crime against those people, owes these descendants, who have faced no slavery nor hardship from [your] actions"? Unless you are rich, and have not been paying your fair share of taxes, it is unlikely that reparations, if made, would cost you "a dime."

Native Americans didn't maintain a force strong enough to keep their standard of life/liberty, so yeah, one may be metaphorically "boned" when one doesn't have the bigger stick than the other party despite what a piece of paper says. A harsh reality, one that I don't personally love, but I didn't write the rules of life so it is what it is.

It was our government that acted immorally towards Native Americans, and is it not reasonable for it to be held responsible for the results? Actually, wouldn't that hold for any immoral actions and their consequences?

"...continuing demagoguery, bigotry, and hatred."

More labels. The only bigotry and hatred I see is that Lebron James and Oprah are millionaires while I'm not (/s because this probably won't be so evident...) Sarcasm? Otherwise, I don't understand this.

Everyone is biased in some fashion, let them be. One would hope that the public/free market would drown idiots out long before they become too influential, although I think the US is well beyond that point. But, IMO better this way than some regime/gubmint deciding our biases for us (like the books say about 1930s-40s Germany?) I think the US has been really pushing into bad territory with things along these lines - the whole "DIE" initiative (appears to be gubmint-wide based on things I hear and see) scares me right to heX and back.

"Everyone is biased in some fashion, let them be." It is the ignorance, fear and hate stemming from deliberate blindness to one's own bias (including my own for a long time) that I object to. "One would hope that the public/free market would drown idiots out long before they become too influential, although I think the US is well beyond that point." I've heard of faith in the free market, which your hope was based upon I assume. It sounds like you are saying it was misplaced. How does the government decide "our biases for us (like the books say about 1930s-40s Germany?)" I think you are referring to DEI. From Wikpedia: "Diversity, equity, and inclusion (usually abbreviated DEI) refers to organizational frameworks which seek to promote "the fair treatment and full participation of all people", particularly groups "who have historically been underrepresented or subject to discrimination" on the basis of identity or disability." On what grounds do find this objectionable or a way that "the government decide[s] our biases for us (like the books say about 1930s-40s Germany?)?"

That I may contract with people based on mutual consent yet decline to do so with certain other people, even for something as silly as a tattoo or eye color; is this not liberty?

It is liberty, but you are not merely declining contact by embracing your biases without question.

--------------
Alas, I've noticed many of my posts being edited or deleted by admins on this site, and generally on many sites especially since ~2020. So much for the free exchange of ideas. I just spent a couple of minutes trying to reign in this powerful post (I'm sure I used what some consider "strong language") in an effort to not be censored again. It's pretty unfortunate, but you can't really go to sites which are made for a specific thing (Heroscape, "name video game here," etc) and talk about things outside of that specific item. P much gotta find that exact religion/political/philosophical forum and do those things there.

I am not noted for tact. I can be confrontational, duh!
I am fairly certain that underneath it all you and I have a great deal of common ground, just as do the people of this country. Unfortunately, those seeking power will not compromise to do anything positive at the moment.

Perhaps it's better that way, idk. Do I think it is? No.

Sorry: "Politics discourse got banned on the Heroscape server because it became too toxic for conversation." ~ Dysole