The Book of Black Alice

[TrollBrute]

Our other power-thief, Rogue, also has a lot of theme breaks as well. She's able to take Cap's shield and his ability to inspire, Booster Gold's equipment, Doc Ock's tentacles, and even Punisher's guns. I'm starting to come around on the idea.

[Viegon]

Originally Posted by quozl

Dr. Doom has a zillion theme breaks too but it worked for him.

Rogue also has plenty of theme breaks, you just can't avoid them with this type of power. My .

EDIT:

[johnny139]

But Dr. Doom and Rogue's powers are "steal abilities." They're both wholesale powers; Doom's is stated vaguely enough that you can imagine it working however you want, and Rogue's are fundamentally wider in scope - she steal abilities, ideas, memories, feelings. There are issues here and there for sure, but by and large they work.

But Black Alice's powers are specifically "steal mystical abilities." Letting her steal powers from everyone means that the vast majority of her targets will be theme breaks - by an EXTREME margin.

[A3n]

Originally Posted by johnny139

But Dr. Doom and Rogue's powers are "steal abilities." They're both wholesale powers; Doom's is stated vaguely enough that you can imagine it working however you want, and Rogue's are fundamentally wider in scope - she steal abilities, ideas, memories, feelings. There are issues here and there for sure, but by and large they work.

But Black Alice's powers are specifically "steal mystical abilities." Letting her steal powers from everyone means that the vast majority of her targets will be theme breaks - by an EXTREME margin.

[quozl]

Instead of another stealing power, we could try something different. This is from the DC wikia:

Powers
Magic Usurpation: The ability to temporarily usurp the magical powers of any being, even ones as powerful as the Spectre, gaining all its skills and power and leaving it powerless in turn. The limit to the distance at which she can steal power of a target being is limitless. She has even shown the ability to steal the powers of two beings simultaneously.

Weaknesses
Power Limitation: The more powerful magic she takes control of, be it from one or multiple sources, the shorter she can hold on to it, and she doesn't know exactly how long powers will stay before they go away.

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

Here's a list from Wikipedia of the people she has stolen from:

• Doctor Fate
• Zatanna
• A member of the Marvel Family
• Spectre
• Wonder Girl or Wonder Woman
• Felix Faust
• Misfit
• Raven
• Giganta
• Alan Scott
• Etrigan the Demon
• Phantom Stranger
• Blue Devil
• Johnny Thunderbolt
• Jeannette
• Nightshade

We could make a bunch of magical powers that each have a point cost, sort of like equipment glyphs. She can choose as many as she wants but can only use up to two "glyphs" at a time. Most all of these "glyphs" could only be used for a limited time.

[TrollBrute]

Originally Posted by johnny139

But Dr. Doom and Rogue's powers are "steal abilities." They're both wholesale powers; Doom's is stated vaguely enough that you can imagine it working however you want, and Rogue's are fundamentally wider in scope - she steal abilities, ideas, memories, feelings. There are issues here and there for sure, but by and large they work.

But Black Alice's powers are specifically "steal mystical abilities." Letting her steal powers from everyone means that the vast majority of her targets will be theme breaks - by an EXTREME margin.

But there's also a theme break in limiting her to Magical Defense figures. On the list of characters she's stolen from, we've designed 8 (10 if you count the Marvel family as multiples). Only 3 of those have Magical Defense. In fact, there are only 10 figures in C3G with Magical Defense. Limiting her to only MD figures makes her extremely niche. Essentially, it will limit her to counter-draft situations against a handful of figures that are rarely played together or in an army with other MD figures, none of whom have synergy with each other. She needs to be thematic, but also playable.

@quozl , interesting idea. Very complex for such a minor character though. So you're thinking a new type of "spell glyph" where each one would have its own cost? Lots of potential options down the road for other magical figures if we go that route. How would you keep them separate from Equipment and Permanent Glyphs?

[quozl]

I was thinking we could differentiate them by making them Magic cards, like what they're adding to Heroscape in the upcoming Magic: the Strategy Boardgame.

[johnny139]

Originally Posted by TrollBrute

But there's also a theme break in limiting her to Magical Defense figures. On the list of characters she's stolen from, we've designed 8 (10 if you count the Marvel family as multiples). Only 3 of those have Magical Defense. In fact, there are only 10 figures in C3G with Magical Defense. Limiting her to only MD figures makes her extremely niche. Essentially, it will limit her to counter-draft situations against a handful of figures that are rarely played together or in an army with other MD figures, none of whom have synergy with each other. She needs to be thematic, but also playable.

But - let's say I get a list of Unique Heroes right now. I put "plausible for Black Alice to take the powers of" in one column, "implausible" in the other column. The latter column would be huge - HUGE. Longer than the first by magnitudes. If a majority of the card's usage is a theme break, it's not something we should be releasing.

quozl's idea is pretty much exactly what Karat and I were discussing with Grimoire Glyphs or Spell Glyphs or whatever. Certain magical characters could start with some of them. Most being one-time use. Lots of different spells. I'm not sure if it captures the "steal specific powers" for Black Alice though.

[quozl]

Another way to go (and much simpler) would be to just go generic. Up her Attack and Range to show a generic magical blast. Give her Magical Defense. Give her something else she does a lot in the comics. Does she fly? And give her magical negation.

[Lord Pyre]

MAGIC POWER TRANSFER
While your Drain Marker is on a chosen figure's card, Black Alice adds 3 to her attack, defense, and range values. A figure with the Magical Defense special power that has a Drain Marker on its card may not use any special powers on its card. Figures without the Magical Defense special power that has a Drain Marker on its card subtracts 2 from it's attack and defense values, to a minimum of 1.

Theme wise we can say she just cast a spell on them to weaken them.

[A3n]

Originally Posted by Lord Pyre

Theme wise we can say she just cast a spell on them to weaken them.

I'm preferring this direction.

[TrollBrute]

I had a couple ideas yesterday. The first would be to give her higher stats and a "big" power. Something from Spectre (stealing his powers was a major storyline for her) or the Marvel family, maybe. Then at the end of every turn, she has to roll the D20, and if she rolls too low, her stats drop and she loses the power for the rest of the game.

The other idea was a simpler version of quozl's; more along the lines of Vixen's card. Give Alice 2-3 powers with corresponding markers that represent who she is "stealing" from. She can only use one at a time, but after using them, she has to roll the D20, and again, if she fails, she can't use that power again.

I'll write up full versions tonight, but that's the direction I'm leaning more toward now.