The Book of Dzu-Teh

[Kroc]

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

Confusion arises because Dzu-Teh is both singular and plural. You are interpreting "the Dzu-Teh" to mean "all Dzu-Teh," while I am interpreting it to mean "that Dzu-Teh." (Demonstrating again that writing game text properly is a whole lot harder than we tend to think.) Has there been any official clarification on this?

I'm with dok on this one. The standard interpretation here is "all," or to be more precise "the" as a descriptor of the group. However I do think we need a semi-official ruling. Just_a_Bill's argument is rock solid.

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Woah, I'm so confused by all this. I've always played them like the Monks, you get to move 3 of them and each of those three may move normally or with Traverse. That's the only way I can really see the power. Especially the last line, by Dok's Interpretation as long as one DT was next to a glacier, every single one of them could teleport next to it from anywere on the map

Or have I been playing wrong the whole tournment?

[AMIS]

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

Woah, I'm so confused by all this. I've always played them like the Monks, you get to move 3 of them and each of those three may move normally or with Traverse. That's the only way I can really see the power. Especially the last line, by Dok's Interpretation as long as one DT was next to a glacier, every single one of them could teleport next to it from anywere on the map

Or have I been playing wrong the whole tournment?

I don't believe that is what Dok was saying. From the OP:

-Rulings and Clarifications-
- GLACIER TRAVERSE : Proper Movement
Can a Dzu-Teh Glacier Traverse across several Glacier Mountains in one turn if they are all connected?
No, the wording of the power states “any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain”. You can only Glacier Traverse across one mountain per move. (Hasbro FAQ)

I believe (Dok correct me if I'm wrong) he's saying that you can move one DT with Traverse and the others normally. Then you can attack with the squad regardless of how they moved.

Or at least that's how I play it.

[Just_a_Bill]

Originally Posted by AMIS

You can only Glacier Traverse across one mountain per move. (Hasbro FAQ)

Hmm, more potential ambiguity. Does that "per move" mean per move of each individual figure, or per move action of the squad? I would have thought the former, but Dok's argument suggests it needs to be interpreted as the latter. (However, I'm probably over-analyzing that bit there.)

The more I think about this wording on this ability, though, especially in light of the FAQ clarifications, the more confident I feel that the=that. If "the" Dzu-Teh really does mean all Dzu-Teh, then the FAQ ruling would actually constitute errata, since the card itself would be saying "if at least one of your Dzu-Teh is next to a glacier, then all of your Dzu-Teh can traverse to it." Under the "the=all" interpretation, there would not be a hint anywhere on the card that each Dzu-Teh's eligibility is determined individually:

If a [any one] Dzu-Teh is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, the Dzu-Teh [all of them] may Glacier Traverse instead of moving normally. You may do this with any or all Dzu-Teh you control each turn [no other requirements are given]. To Glacier Traverse, move to any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain [the same one for all figures].

Note that it explicitly gives you permission to move all the Dzu-Teh you control, without requiring the rest of them to be adjacent to a glacier. If the argument is that the initial requirement applies to any one figure and the result applies to all the figures, then I cannot escape this conclusion.

So these would seem to be our choices when trying to understand this mess:

1. "The" means "all" and the FAQ ruling should have been presented as errata, because it completely changes the meaning of the card.
2. "The" means "that" and the FAQ ruling is just a clarification, clearing up the confusion caused by the "any or all" sentence coming in the middle of the text instead of at the end where it really belongs.
3. The FAQ gives an incorrect interpretation of the card and we're starting from scratch.
4. Something I've missed?

Also, note this apparent self-contradiction: "the Dzu-Teh [all of them] may Glacier Traverse instead of moving normally." It would be impossible for 4 or 9 Dzu-Teh to traverse instead of moving normally because it is illegal for 4 or 9 Dzu-Teh to move normally in the first place. I'm now questioning the assertion that you can traverse more than three figures. The FAQ doesn't say you can, so I'm starting to wonder if the "any or all figures you control" really means "any or all figures you are moving." In other words, they wrote "any or all" assuming that it was already understood that each DT's eligibility was already individually determined by having to give up a normal move in order to traverse.

[ZBeeblebrox]

Wow, I never understood that you could move all Dzu-teh you control...even after all this time I learn I've been playing a unit wrong...go figure.

[awesomeunleashed]

Here's one of the few times I think that dok's interpretation of a power is incorrect. Just like the Shaolin Monks, only 3 Dzu-Teh can Glacier Traverse per turn, and you have to attack with those Dzu-Teh. This is because of the key "instead of moving normally" part. "Any or all Dzu-Teh you control may Glacier Traverse" means, to me, any or all of the three Dzu-Teh you are moving that turn may:

If [that] Dzu-Teh is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, [...] move to any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain.

I could be wrong, but that's what I get when I compare this wording to Stealth Leap. It's also, IMO, the interpretation that makes the most sense (which makes me think it's right).

[Soundwarp SG-1]

Originally Posted by AMIS

I don't believe that is what Dok was saying. From the OP:

-Rulings and Clarifications-
- GLACIER TRAVERSE : Proper Movement
Can a Dzu-Teh Glacier Traverse across several Glacier Mountains in one turn if they are all connected?
No, the wording of the power states “any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain”. You can only Glacier Traverse across one mountain per move. (Hasbro FAQ)

I believe (Dok correct me if I'm wrong) he's saying that you can move one DT with Traverse and the others normally. Then you can attack with the squad regardless of how they moved.

Or at least that's how I play it.

That's pretty much the opposite of what he said actually:

Originally Posted by dok

Type 2 (traverse turn):

1. Reveal an OM on the DT.
2. Move each DT that starts its turn next to a glacier to any other space that is next to the glacier that that DT started its turn next to. You can do this for every DT that starts its turn next to a glacier.
3. Attack with any 3 DTs. It doesn't matter if the ones you pick traversed or not.

The problem is, I'm pretty sure there is no way the power can work like that. This interpretation depends on 'the Dzu-Teh' meaning 'all of them' instead of 'the Dzu-Teh' meaning 'the one mentioned earlier'. But if 'the Dzu-Teh' is plural then there is nothing that requires any of the Dzu-Teh to be adjacent to the Glacier Mountain except the first one.

I'm 99 percent sure the power is intended to be roughly the same as stealth leap, it is either that or magic teleporting super monkeys.

[greygnarl]

It seems pretty obvious that if a Dzu-Teh is adjacent to a glacier, then the the refers to that Dzu-Teh.

If a [any one] Dzu-Teh is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, the Dzu-Teh [adjacent to the mountain] may Glacier Traverse instead of moving normally. You may do this with any or all Dzu-Teh you control each turn [no other requirements are given]. To Glacier Traverse, move to any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain [that the Traversing Dzu-Teh is adjacent to].

I think the real argument is whether you can move and attack with some Dzu-Teh and Glacier Traverse with others.

[mac122]

Originally Posted by greygnarl

I think the real argument is whether you can move and attack with some Dzu-Teh and Glacier Traverse with others.

Glacier Traverse replaces the normal move. If you Glacier Traverse a Dzu-Teh it has moved and is one of the figures that can attack that turn.

[dok]

Wow, lots here. Turns out that everyone interprets this differently.

I have dropped Rÿchean a PM; hopefully he can lend some insight into the intent of things.

Originally Posted by Kroc

I'm with dok on this one. The standard interpretation here is "all," or to be more precise "the" as a descriptor of the group. However I do think we need a semi-official ruling. Just_a_Bill's argument is rock solid.

I agree that both interpretations are possible.

Originally Posted by Soundwarp SG-1

Woah, I'm so confused by all this. I've always played them like the Monks, you get to move 3 of them and each of those three may move normally or with Traverse. That's the only way I can really see the power. Especially the last line, by Dok's Interpretation as long as one DT was next to a glacier, every single one of them could teleport next to it from anywere on the map

Or have I been playing wrong the whole tournment?

Nobody knows, but given that I'm arguing that you could have traveresed with 12 DTs in one turn, that's hardly weaker. So I don't think anyone has any grounds to complain.

Originally Posted by AMIS

I believe (Dok correct me if I'm wrong) he's saying that you can move one DT with Traverse and the others normally. Then you can attack with the squad regardless of how they moved.

No, that's what Just_a_Bill is saying. I'm saying that Traverse replaces all normal movement, sort of like Gain High Ground but instead of movement as opposed to being at the end of the turn. I could be wrong, though, and it seems like most people think I am.

However, if you can only move three, and you just choose whether those three traverse or move normally, then I'm quite confident that you can only attack with the three that moved, even if some of those moves are traverse moves. I assume that's what you meant but you weren't completely clear.

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

Hmm, more potential ambiguity. Does that "per move" mean per move of each individual figure, or per move action of the squad? I would have thought the former, but Dok's argument suggests it needs to be interpreted as the latter. (However, I'm probably over-analyzing that bit there.)

Well, I agree that it's linguistically possible that that's the meaning, but as a practical matter there's NO WAY that they meant to have all the DTs able to teleport next to one glacier. That's very obviously not the intention. On a card where everyone seems to see it a little differently, I hope we can all agree on that.

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

The more I think about this wording on this ability, though, especially in light of the FAQ clarifications, the more confident I feel that the=that. If "the" Dzu-Teh really does mean all Dzu-Teh, then the FAQ ruling would actually constitute errata, since the card itself would be saying "if at least one of your Dzu-Teh is next to a glacier, then all of your Dzu-Teh can traverse to it." Under the "the=all" interpretation, there would not be a hint anywhere on the card that each Dzu-Teh's eligibility is determined individually:

If a [any one] Dzu-Teh is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, the Dzu-Teh [all of them] may Glacier Traverse instead of moving normally. You may do this with any or all Dzu-Teh you control each turn [no other requirements are given]. To Glacier Traverse, move to any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain [the same one for all figures].

Note that it explicitly gives you permission to move all the Dzu-Teh you control, without requiring the rest of them to be adjacent to a glacier. If the argument is that the initial requirement applies to any one figure and the result applies to all the figures, then I cannot escape this conclusion.

So these would seem to be our choices when trying to understand this mess:

1. "The" means "all" and the FAQ ruling should have been presented as errata, because it completely changes the meaning of the card.
2. "The" means "that" and the FAQ ruling is just a clarification, clearing up the confusion caused by the "any or all" sentence coming in the middle of the text instead of at the end where it really belongs.
3. The FAQ gives an incorrect interpretation of the card and we're starting from scratch.
4. Something I've missed?

I think it's possible that the FAQ isn't wrong, but rather just being a hair imprecise when it comes to this particular question; i.e. it's only trying to address the question of traversing across a connected chain of mountains.

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

Also, note this apparent self-contradiction: "the Dzu-Teh [all of them] may Glacier Traverse instead of moving normally." It would be impossible for 4 or 9 Dzu-Teh to traverse instead of moving normally because it is illegal for 4 or 9 Dzu-Teh to move normally in the first place.

I disagree that that's a contradiction. By that interpretation, it would be saying that instead of moving normally with this card, you may move any or all of the DTs you control.

Originally Posted by Just_a_Bill

I'm now questioning the assertion that you can traverse more than three figures. The FAQ doesn't say you can, so I'm starting to wonder if the "any or all figures you control" really means "any or all figures you are moving." In other words, they wrote "any or all" assuming that it was already understood that each DT's eligibility was already individually determined by having to give up a normal move in order to traverse.

Oh, I agree. That's the only alternative interpretation from mine that makes sense to me - and upon reflection it might make more sense. Either Traverse is intended to replace your normal movement phase for the card with a Traverse move by any DTs you control that are next to glaciers, or Traverse is an option for each DT that is activated in an order marker, up to the usual maximum of three. The interpretation that you could move with three and traverse with the rest doesn't really make sense to me at all.

Originally Posted by awesomeunleashed

Here's one of the few times I think that dok's interpretation of a power is incorrect. Just like the Shaolin Monks, only 3 Dzu-Teh can Glacier Traverse per turn, and you have to attack with those Dzu-Teh. This is because of the key "instead of moving normally" part. "Any or all Dzu-Teh you control may Glacier Traverse" means, to me, any or all of the three Dzu-Teh you are moving that turn may:

If [that] Dzu-Teh is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, [...] move to any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain.

I could be wrong, but that's what I get when I compare this wording to Stealth Leap. It's also, IMO, the interpretation that makes the most sense (which makes me think it's right).

Yep, I'm coming around, too.

Originally Posted by greygnarl

I think the real argument is whether you can move and attack with some Dzu-Teh and Glacier Traverse with others.

I disagree; that makes the lease sense to me of all of the options being considered. Either Traverse is replacing all normal movement, or it's an option for each activated DT up to the maximum of three.

[Aldin]

If a Dzu-Teh is adjacent to a Glacier Mountain, the Dzu-Teh may Glacier Traverse instead of moving normally. You may do this with any or all Dzu-Teh you control each turn. To Glacier Traverse, move to any unoccupied space adjacent to that Glacier Mountain.

In the first sentence, there is nothing that indicates that the second use of the term Dzu-Teh should be interpreted as having a different meaning from the first use of the term. So I default to it having the same meaning in both uses within the sentence.

I suspect "the" is used instead of "that" to keep from implying that the entire ability was tied to that specific figure. Imagine a situation where two Dzu-Teh figures were adjacent to two different Glacier Mountains. You could argue then the use of "that" would tie the ability for that turn to one specific Glacier Mountain adjacent to a specific figure and the next sentence simply meant that multiple Dzu-Teh adjacent to that Glacier Mountain could traverse.

So yeah, plainly spoken I think that any given figure can either use their move number or use glacier traverse and that either counts as that figure's movement.

~Aldin, frigidly

[greygnarl]

Originally Posted by dok

it's an option for each activated DT up to the maximum of three.

This was almost certainly the intent, and how I would play it. The wording is ambiguous though.