The Pre-SoV Workshop

[Dad_Scaper]

I think you are wise to pull the plug here, Dewk, but you asked a couple of questions that might serve our readers, so I'll answer them anyway.

Originally Posted by The Dewk

I would love to know why you feel this way, as I feel the complete opposite - the 10 point slot is stale. 95% of the time, if one has 10 points to work with, one picks Isamu (as we all know, the only other option is Otonashi, and she's really only good for shenanigans). I love having choices. I love when the core of my 500 point army is fleshed out, and I've got 120 points left - do I bring one of the dozen+ heroes that cost 120, or do I bring a couple of 60 point squads, or do I do a combination of those things? Having options that do different things and have different strengths is awesome.

That's a reasonable opinion to have, and it appears that PK shares it. That's ok! But it's also ok to say that "10 point filler" is not a niche that needs to be filled. It is not the responsibility, some might say, of the creators of the canon to make tournament army composition e-z mode. You don't *need* to have access to an array of fillers, like books on a library shelf, to make your army composition easy. You just need to do the best you can with what you have in your format.

This other way of thinking about it has the benefit of giving us - including you - a relatively free hand as designers. After all, if the group of "fillers" is stale, then that says to me that there should be more 15 & 20 point units, too, because sometimes those are the points left over at the end. I refuse to accept that we have an obligation to fatten the bottom end of the power curve just to make it easier to build armies. That does not sound like fun, as a designer. Let me make the best designs I can, and we'll see where they end up landing w/r/t cost.

I'm of the mind that we are not in the business of making army composition easier. I don't feel like we owe the community a boatload of 10 and 20 point units so people can dispense with Isamu and Marcu.

On the other hand, if you show me a custom that *needs* to be 10 points, then we can talk. I really liked Johann Graybeard, as an older fighter with one last heroic act to give. And he needs to be 10 points or so.

There are others on both sides of me. Some would say "no more 10 pointers at all," for their own reasons, and others - like PK - apparently believe there should be a complete set. I can't speak for them, or for anyone else but me, but my own feeling is that if you're going to make a 10 pointer he better be darned good as a custom to justify consideration at an extreme price.

The same is true at the high end, of course. We gave a lot of consideration to pricing a unit above Jotun, and some of us didn't want to do that. But we decided that it was ok, because the theme and the mechanics demanded it. Same as Graybeard at 10.

My own preference is that people don't aim at 10. Design your designs, and if one happens to land at 10, then know that there will be extra scrutiny.

Originally Posted by The Dewk

Interesting points, Dad_Scaper! Do you often look at a miniature and think to yourself, "what point cost should this be, and what could I see it doing?" I usually work backwards from that - think of a cool power or theme, and then try and find a mini for it, and then flesh it out/go from there.

No, I never start with price. Let me explain.

I looked at your mini and at your theme and thought, "This should not be such a weenie." Johann Graybeard is an old man. Isamu is thematically fragile, as is Otonashi. This guy looks like a demon and has demon-like powers. He deserves more than to be relegated to the sad club of The Cheapest Filler.

[The Dewk]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

That's a reasonable opinion to have, and it appears that PK shares it. That's ok! But it's also ok to say that "10 point filler" is not a niche that needs to be filled. It is not the responsibility, some might say, of the creators of the canon to make tournament army composition e-z mode. You don't *need* to have access to an array of fillers, like books on a library shelf, to make your army composition easy. You just need to do the best you can with what you have in your format.

This other way of thinking about it has the benefit of giving us - including you - a relatively free hand as designers. After all, if the group of "fillers" is stale, then that says to me that there should be more 15 & 20 point units, too, because sometimes those are the points left over at the end. I refuse to accept that we have an obligation to fatten the bottom end of the power curve just to make it easier to build armies. That does not sound like fun, as a designer. Let me make the best designs I can, and we'll see where they end up landing w/r/t cost.

I'm of the mind that we are not in the business of making army composition easier. I don't feel like we owe the community a boatload of 10 and 20 point units so people can dispense with Isamu and Marcu.

Thank you for the thoughtful response. We are in agreement about a lot of things.

I'm not sure I follow where you speak about army composition and "easy mode" though. Currently, it's as easy as can be - I've got 10 points to fill, I choose Isamu. Options make army building harder and more fun. Last year, for one of the Utah Monthlies, my brother had gotten his army down except for the last 50 points. We spent weeks emailing back and forth weighing the pros and cons of using various units - should he toss in Me-Burq-Sa? A pair of Chainfighters? Marcu and Guilty? And it was a blast! I don't know if others find building the perfect army for the format put forth for them as fun as my brother and I do, admittedly.

[Pumpkin_King]

Yeah, that's more my belief about having fillers - no choices isn't good design. Otonashi is laughable as a choice except in very specific circumstances. Even having three or four equally viable 10-pointers (along with one or two 20-pointers that aren't Kyntela) would be a very good goal.

[Scytale]

Originally Posted by The Dewk

Is there a reason why X OM powers are used sparingly in the ol' VC (I'm not contending this, I genuinely want to know the reasoning, so that I can possibly better follow established protocols going forward)? To me, they are just another way to get some design variety. In my mind, a 10 pointer with a base attack of 5 may be unbalanced, but commentators here have me thinking that may not be the case.

It's something that can easily be overdone. It's also overly contentious if overused; you only get one 'X' order marker, after all. It also carries with it the baggage of taking away the bluff, which is an additional cost that should not be taken lightly.

[Dad_Scaper]

“Easy Mode” meaning it’s enough to get to 450 out of 460, because that’s close enough. Grab a 10 pointer off the shelf and done. For my part, I am reluctant to encourage that sort of play, and I reject that the notion that Isamu exists means that I must.

[Kinseth]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

“Easy Mode” meaning it’s enough to get to 450 out of 460, because that’s close enough. Grab a 10 pointer off the shelf and done. For my part, I am reluctant to encourage that sort of play, and I reject that the notion that Isamu exists means that I must.

Agreed 100%

This is why I actually play almost exclusively, Bring 2 formats. If you have never played a Bring 2 event, you should give it a try.

[flameslayer93]

Creating a 10 point filler, or any filler unit, should be about creating somethimg new and fresh. While I don’t agree with creatimg a 10 point unit for each general, I’m in the agreement that we need another 10 point unit to help with variability. We got Otonashi after all, and the original designers didnt give a hoot about tournament play until about wave 9.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

I'm not in favor of creating 10 (or 20 or 25 or 35 or . . . ) point units merely for choice's sake.

“Easy Mode” meaning it’s enough to get to 450 out of 460, because that’s close enough. Grab a 10 pointer off the shelf and done. For my part, I am reluctant to encourage that sort of play, and I reject that the notion that Isamu exists means that I must.

* * *

Some would say "no more 10 pointers at all," for their own reasons, and others . . . apparently believe there should be a complete set. I can't speak for them, or for anyone else but me, but my own feeling is that if you're going to make a 10 pointer he better be darned good as a custom to justify consideration at an extreme price. ~ Dad_Scaper

To me, it is inefficient to end up with any "filler" unit(s) at all in an army. As things stand, due to SoV/C3V, there are a plethora of choices at 30, 35, and 40 points, that I can't see myself ever having to include a "filler" unit. If I were to include Isamu in an army, it would be because I had a planned role for him, based on the map or the scenario.

Creating a 10 point filler, or any filler unit, should be about creating somethimg new and fresh. While I don’t agree with creatimg a 10 point unit for each general, I’m in the agreement that we need another 10 point unit to help with variability. We got Otonashi after all, and the original designers didnt give a hoot about tournament play until about wave 9. ~ Flameslayer93

Creating any 10 point hero that would be worth creating a space for in an army appears well nigh impossible to me.

That being said, sure, I'd like a half dozen viable choices at every point value, but I don't expect or need that to happen. To the extent it does, I'd expect it to happen through the "normal," organic creative processes already established. I advocate building to the mini or building to the concept, and let the point value take care of itself.

[Pumpkin_King]

Seems like a lot baked into two powers. I’m guilty of that myself! But SoV would probably have an issue with that.

[flameslayer93]

@kolakoski

Creating any unit that is actually balanced but viable enough to be used in an army is nigh impossible, regardless of price cost. That's why there's so many units who don't get used with any regularity in competitive play.

[Leaf_It]

Originally Posted by Dad_Scaper

“Easy Mode” meaning it’s enough to get to 450 out of 460, because that’s close enough. Grab a 10 pointer off the shelf and done. For my part, I am reluctant to encourage that sort of play, and I reject that the notion that Isamu exists means that I must.

I just wanted to state my partial agreement with this. I actively avoid using filler that doesn't fit with my army. I'm a sucker for theme, and if Isamu breaks that theme, and he usually does, then I won't use him. I Also reject the notion that Isamu, or even Otonashi should always be in an army that's 10 - 15 points short.

I am of the opinion that each general should have a 10 pointer. But I don't want them to just be a 10 pointer for the sake of having them. I want them all to feel different, and serve a unique purpose. I have 2 ideas currently that I have been working on and off with for the last 8 months or so. They aren't at the top of my priority list right now though, so who knows when/if you'll ever see them.

[kolakoski]

Well met!

Originally Posted by kolakoski

I advocate building to the mini or building to the concept, and let the point value take care of itself.

Originally Posted by Pumpkin_King

Seems like a lot baked into two powers. I’m guilty of that myself! But SoV would probably have an issue with that.

We will begin testing a revised version next week. The essential defensive power for Kha is being able to leave engagement without harm; he isn't a Ninja after all. Although BiggaBullfrog rewrote and combined two powers into one for Vial Bolt and Blade, it now seems best to split them into their original components. The new version is as follows:

Card again produced by Dr.Goomonkey. Proxy (until May release of figure) below: