The Book of Billy Batson

[IAmBatman]

We should probably put "you may," then, if it's supposed to be optional.

[A3n]

Next ERB response from Davidlhls:

Originally Posted by davidlhsl

Billy Batson

tcglkn has a custom for Bruce Banner that I really love. The card went through NM24, and Aldin revealed that it was broken. You could simply ignore Bruce when he was in Hulk form, then take both down as Bruce Banner. Aldin didn't even try to tweak it to make it work, and they redesigned it. (sniffle)

With this design, the opponent is going to have to take down both Billy and the Capt. So that addresses one problem. I love the idea of doing damage to adjacent figures when Shazam! kicks into play. So now I need to consider any other issues that may arise.

Mind Shackle, Control (or equivalent)
Ok, let's say an opponent's Puppet Master takes control of my Billy Batson, then walks him into lava or off a rooftop to destroy him. Since he wasn't in my control at the moment he was destroyed, that might prevent Shazam!, and Capt. Marvel would be held in limbo.

Now let's say Poison Ivy takes control of Billy Batson. This time, she gets control of Billy's card. Since the card will return to the original owner if Poison Ivy is destroyed, you could strike at her to get Billy back. If that happens, then Billy returns and you're back in business.

With MODOK's Psionic Command, which triggers when MODOK inflicts a wound, would Shazam! take effect before MODOK takes temporary control or after?

Looking through the Index, I don't see any figure other than Poison Ivy that does take control of the card. However, Mind Shackle already exists in Heroscape, and there's always the possibility that the ability could appear in C3G in some form. If I'm not mistaken, I believe one of Mad Hatter's write-ups had something like that.

The Ignore Factor
Ok, I start the game with Billy Batson on the map. Let's test Aldin's concern about simply ignoring him. Capt. Marvel can only enter the map when Billy Batson takes a wound or is destroyed. Let's say that the opponent decides to simply ignore Billy, since he isn't much of a threat. The opponent must deal with Billy at some point, but let's say the opponent decides to wait until after taking down the other figures in my army to deal with Capt. Marvel during the end game.

Well, I could bring Shazam! on my own by shooting at Billy with my own figures, walking him off a cliff, or let him tinker with a risky glyph that might wound or destroy him (e.g., Cosmic Cube). That'll force the issue.

Then again, Capt. Marvel is a tank. Ok, you can put him off. But by the time you are forced to deal with him, your figures are likely already damaged, and I have a fresh Capt. Marvel to play with.

So I don't see the Ignore Factor as a problem. If the tactical situation warrants, there are ways of forcing the issue. However, wounding your own figure with friendly fire to force Shazam! might be a theme break.

One idea: perhaps Shazam! could be more in control of the player by allowing the player to do this after revealing an Order Marker on Billy Batson's or Capt. Marvel's card and before taking a turn with him. This would essentially allow this ability to work as a reduced Flame On type ability. It could be either an alternative or addition to your design.

Final Thoughts
You have no idea how badly I want this mechanic to work, because I think it's a very fun and imaginative idea. I can think of two other alter-egos that would be brilliant for this concept: Bruce Banner (Hulk) and Clark Kent (Superman). In fact, I think Clark Kent would really be exciting to implement.

So, we're down to the two issues mentioned. From a gameplay standpoint, I don't think the Ignore Factor is a problem. I'll leave it to your experience to determine whether using friendly fire to force the transfer is a theme break.

That leaves the Mind Shackle issue. Perhaps you'd need to specify in Secret Identity that if one card is transferred to another player, both cards are transferred. Or, it might be considered a fun risk to allow Capt. Marvel to be placed in limbo.

Then you'd have to deal with the situation where one of the figures is destroyed when not in your control. I started to suggest a wording change, but my suggestion didn't take into consideration times when more than one player drafts them.

I think the ignore part of it is fine & I think we will put something in the strategy section to recommend you start the game with Captain Marvel on the field .

The mind shackle is an interesting point & I will need to think more before I formulate anything to counter that statement.

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by A3n

ERB response from Hi1:

I don't think must is required, in fact I think that might be a theme break.

Even if must isn't on there, it is implied because there is nothing that says that ASPECT is optional. The power itself right now is optional, but once you use it, you HAVE to use all of it.

Now, if you don't like that, then the word MAY should be added so that there isn't a detriment, however, I think it should stay for a few reasons.

1 - It makes you think about when you should or shouldn't switch (creates in game decisions)
2 - I like the theme of the lightning being dangerous and people should stand back when he switches.
3 - BB and CM are SICK together, and I have no problem sneaking in a potential risk with Shazam!

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by davidlhsl

Billy Batson

tcglkn has a custom for Bruce Banner that I really love. The card went through NM24, and Aldin revealed that it was broken. You could simply ignore Bruce when he was in Hulk form, then take both down as Bruce Banner. Aldin didn't even try to tweak it to make it work, and they redesigned it. (sniffle)

With this design, the opponent is going to have to take down both Billy and the Capt. So that addresses one problem. I love the idea of doing damage to adjacent figures when Shazam! kicks into play. So now I need to consider any other issues that may arise.

Yes, with this design, if you ignore Billy forever, you are going to lose because Billy will eventually kill you with his little attack or find a way to take damage and switch again, and you will lose by his points and Captain Marvel's. No problem there, because you can't ignore Billy forever, you just can't if you want to win the game.

Mind Shackle, Control (or equivalent)
Ok, let's say an opponent's Puppet Master takes control of my Billy Batson, then walks him into lava or off a rooftop to destroy him. Since he wasn't in my control at the moment he was destroyed, that might prevent Shazam!, and Capt. Marvel would be held in limbo.

PM kills my BB in lava, and Captain Marvel is in limbo. Not a problem. PM kills my Iskra in lava, and my Retchets of Bogdan are in limbo. Not a problem.

Now let's say Poison Ivy takes control of Billy Batson. This time, she gets control of Billy's card. Since the card will return to the original owner if Poison Ivy is destroyed, you could strike at her to get Billy back. If that happens, then Billy returns and you're back in business.

Yep.

With MODOK's Psionic Command, which triggers when MODOK inflicts a wound, would Shazam! take effect before MODOK takes temporary control or after?

MODOK specifies THAT HERO, so it wouldn't be the switched (incoming hero), it would be the current wounded (outgoing hero) that is mind controlled. And, in situations where powers occur at the same time, the official game says to roll a D20 to decide initiative. However, MODOK clearly has initiative because his card says "IMMEDIATELY".

Looking through the Index, I don't see any figure other than Poison Ivy that does take control of the card. However, Mind Shackle already exists in Heroscape, and there's always the possibility that the ability could appear in C3G in some form. If I'm not mistaken, I believe one of Mad Hatter's write-ups had something like that.

So what? What is the problem with that or any of these "examples"? I don't see the point AT ALL.

The Ignore Factor
Ok, I start the game with Billy Batson on the map. Let's test Aldin's concern about simply ignoring him. Capt. Marvel can only enter the map when Billy Batson takes a wound or is destroyed. Let's say that the opponent decides to simply ignore Billy, since he isn't much of a threat. The opponent must deal with Billy at some point, but let's say the opponent decides to wait until after taking down the other figures in my army to deal with Capt. Marvel during the end game.

Well, I could bring Shazam! on my own by shooting at Billy with my own figures, walking him off a cliff, or let him tinker with a risky glyph that might wound or destroy him (e.g., Cosmic Cube). That'll force the issue.

Then again, Capt. Marvel is a tank. Ok, you can put him off. But by the time you are forced to deal with him, your figures are likely already damaged, and I have a fresh Capt. Marvel to play with.

So I don't see the Ignore Factor as a problem. If the tactical situation warrants, there are ways of forcing the issue. However, wounding your own figure with friendly fire to force Shazam! might be a theme break.

One idea: perhaps Shazam! could be more in control of the player by allowing the player to do this after revealing an Order Marker on Billy Batson's or Capt. Marvel's card and before taking a turn with him. This would essentially allow this ability to work as a reduced Flame On type ability. It could be either an alternative or addition to your design.

I like you David, but if you are asking questions just to hear yourself answer them and have us read it, that is a complete waste of my time.

Final Thoughts
You have no idea how badly I want this mechanic to work, because I think it's a very fun and imaginative idea. I can think of two other alter-egos that would be brilliant for this concept: Bruce Banner (Hulk) and Clark Kent (Superman). In fact, I think Clark Kent would really be exciting to implement.

So, we're down to the two issues mentioned. From a gameplay standpoint, I don't think the Ignore Factor is a problem. I'll leave it to your experience to determine whether using friendly fire to force the transfer is a theme break.

That leaves the Mind Shackle issue. Perhaps you'd need to specify in Secret Identity that if one card is transferred to another player, both cards are transferred. Or, it might be considered a fun risk to allow Capt. Marvel to be placed in limbo.

Then you'd have to deal with the situation where one of the figures is destroyed when not in your control. I started to suggest a wording change, but my suggestion didn't take into consideration times when more than one player drafts them.

1. If it isn't an issue and you know it, why are we talking about it?
2. Retchets and Airborne Elite have the same limbo issue. It is a risk and a mechanic that is as old as Heroscape itself.

You can send any or all of that to David.

[IAmBatman]

I kind of like the must as well.

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by IAmBatman

I kind of like the musk as well.

[A3n]

Originally Posted by Griffin

that's just wrong!

[A3n]

Last ERB from Hahma:

Originally Posted by Hahma

Looks solid A3n. I'm guessing you would start the game with Captain Marvel and maybe try to get him into a crowd of opponent's figures so that when he takes a would you can go Shazam on their ass and hopefully give them all wounds. Then hopefully Billy survives with only a wound or two to Shazam again to bring CM back and then maybe get one more use out of it before poor Billy dies.

I wouldn't see any reason to start the game with Billy as the opponent could just leave him alone to avoid bringing CM into the mix.

I really don't have any negative things to say, he seems like a fun thematic addition to Captain Marvel.

[tcglkn]

I've searched on both Google and ComicVine and can't find anything better than what you have found for the art, A3n. I'll search some more but I'm doubtful.

[Good Pig]

Originally Posted by A3n

that's just wrong!

[Griffin]

Originally Posted by A3n

Last ERB from Hahma:

Hahma and the others that have said the same thing are correct. I just can't find ANY use for putting Billy up at the start of the game. It makes so much more sense to go with CM first.

[Spidey'tilIDie]