Wargrounds of Scape (WoS) - discussion thread

[superfrog]

Originally Posted by BiggaBullfrog

Shaolin Monastery by @Sheep


Shaolin Monastery is a very visually striking map. The terrain zones are near perfect (if only those rock hexes could be asphalt), and it has a fun layered climbing element to it that evokes a battle in a mountaintop monastery.

One of the most important strategic features of the map are the level four two-hexes outside the start zone. They offer great control over their part of the battlefield, can be shielded by a Raelin in the start zone, and are only beaten in height by two single-hex level pieces. There is plenty of level four in the middle of the map to match height for approaching figures, but that does result in a lot of climbing. Also, in the case of the left-side perch, you can fire down on the glyph, giving you great control. Move Raelin up out of the start zone a bit and you can cover the perch plus some central area, or even both perches, depending on which figures you're fielding and how much real estate you think you can handle.

I really went back and forth on these spots a lot. They are very strong, and the fact that Raelin can cover them from the start zone means that ranged armies get a strong setup, especially ones that rely on one main figure like Q9 or Nilfheim. I found myself wanting a counter built into the map to make it more dynamic.

I'd love to see some tinkering with the map and think it has some solid bones, but as it is I think it falls short of the best of the best. I vote NO to induct.

I have been percolating on exactly what to write in the full review of Shaolin Monastery that I had planned after playing on it a few times over the past week (and especially after a helpful recent game against @Grey Waves with spectator commentary from @Shurrig ).

But Bigga's review hits basically all the notes mine was going to, so I'll just go ahead and join him in a to induct. I've added a few explanatory comments below to explain my thoughts in case it's helpful.

One of the particular struggles of this map's perches is that they can't fire on each other without 7+ range, so even in a normal range vs. range matchup neither side really is incentivized to develop onto the sand level 4, risking engagements and even ground attacks from any melee component's of the opponent's army.

My games on this map often devolved into developing onto level 2, filling up both level 4 concrete perches, and then furtively sending out a few figures at a time. I think this map could really benefit from moving the level 4 concretes closer together (6 or fewer spaces apart), shrinking the sand level 4 areas, and providing a bit more safe level 3 through the center.

I definitely agree that this map sells its theme very well, and it sometimes makes for some great games, but I think it does fall short of that WoS tier.

[superfrog]

Apocalypse Now by @Typhon2222



A few things to note at the beginning of this review:

1) This map is super pretty, and really evokes its name.
2) This map uses a lot of sets, but none of them have that much terrain.
3) This map uses a single BftU, which makes it more accessible (and thus brings more value to a TD) than a 2 BftU map in the current market.

I really have enjoyed playing on this map. There are very realistic options for developing left, right, and center, each one with its own jungle for protection. I think in general left won for me more than right, but usually I'd reserve a few to challenge the center and a couple figures to go right as well. Going left is probably the safest, but it does have a downside of being blocked off from the center by the elbow of the ruin.

The only level 4 on the map is directly in the center, and it's a linear 3-hex. Those aren't very common for some reason (seriously, go look at some maps, they don't have them) but here it works very well. In my reviews of Nomanisan and Mome Raths I noted that I find a raised center interesting, and I think a 3-hex is a great size for that, as it helps a double-space figure not be too comfortable perching.

The center is a little bit tight, but there are enough options for figures that developed right and figures coming through the center for it to be open enough in pretty much any matchup I played. One thing that helps is that the center itself is a goal, not a path, and there's other ways to traverse the map if you have other objectives you're trying to reach. Almost never do you have to get laterally through the center to reach your opponent, just to the center. Occasionally I wished that the tree was swapped into the spot where the level 1 shadow is, but that would tie up movement around the center just a little further so I think the current position is superior.

For a few games on this map I forgot to play with the asphalt level 3 2-hex near the glyph area. When I added it in, I found it an improvement to the map, offering a perch for added interest, with a built-in counter in the level 3 run around the outcrops (specifically the outer few hexes there). I had actually been wondering if those level 3s by the outcrop were slightly too strong themselves, but the level 3 perches provide dynamic counterplay there.

I appreciate the scattering of shadow throughout the map, I think I wouldn't change any of those placements. Having only a pair of double-boosted spaces means vegie can't object too strongly as they don't dominate the map at all.

I am in general not a huge fan of tripling the single outcrops but I think it's worth it here, the 3-hex formation is a core piece of the identity of the flanks here and it works well.

I also love the clarity of the SZs and the limiting of brown-edge hexes to those SZs, keeping the center for the greens all those striking greys.

Overall, Apocalypse Now takes some small sets that sometimes are tough to utilize effectively and combines them seamlessly into a polished, competitive map. to induct.

[MegaSilver]

I would like to nominate Mime Raths by Typhon2222

Mime Raths



The main events it's been played at, at least listed on Heroscape.org, are:

HexiCon 1
Peoria Monthlies: April

[superfrog]

Two announcements from the WoS team:

1) We are updating our build validity guidelines to explicitly state that map designers may specify the Warehouse Ruin Breakable Wall Section and the Fortress Door to be used in maps as obstacles (not only as destructible objects as the rulebook states). Keen followers will note that at least one previous submission (Ruined City, and potentially Mayberry) used the Warehouse Ruin in this way, and we wanted to clarify that this is allowed, despite going against the literal reading of the rules. Formal wording in the OP coming later.

2) We are excited to add @Matthias Maccabeus as an 8th judge on our roster. Matthias is a great player and TD, and brings years of BoV map judging experience. Having 8 judges means that a map now requires 3 downvotes to be instantly eliminated, although 6 upvotes remains the number for instant induction.

[infectedsloth]

Congrats @Matthias Maccabeus

[Matthias Maccabeus]

Nightfall
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...14#post2591514
BftU, Marvel x 2, RttFF

I will start by saying (and this should not come as any surprise to those that know me) I’m old school. I’ve been around for a while and have watched maps change and adapt to the heroscape scene and have enjoyed the old school legend map makers and the newer ones establishing themselves as credible cartographers. Typhon222 is an old school guy. Sygian Rift is my #3 map of all time. He does great work.

Nightfall is a fun map. The road is used to traverse from one start zone to another without too many order markers. The shadow is placed pretty well throughout while preparing to jockey for height. The glyphs are placed well and surrounded by height so they are not easily defended. I really like this map. In fact I think it was the 2nd best map at Scape Con this year by far.

However, (here it comes) I’m not a fan of how many sets this takes to build. As a TD this eats into my collection too much with having to amass 4 sets just to build it. 3 of those are master sets (yes I know Marvel has very little terrain and many of you will say you can’t count that by itself as a master set. I would in turn say well there’s 2 here, does that count as a master set?) For a map to use 4 sets and get an upvote from me it would have to be phenomenal. Unfortunately Nightfall is a really good map, but not phenomenal.

I vote no.

April 9th
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...45#post2591345
RotV, TT, TJ

I do not like this map. I think it starts right from the beginning. The ruin and glaciers force me to funnel out of my start zone. Lateral movement up top is tough coming out of the gate. Also the ‘chasm” in the middle was difficult to cross with 5 move melee when being shot at from the other side. The jungle didn’t seem to provide enough bonuses. The glyph in the middle also clogged things up when trying to traverse the “chasm”.

I vote no.

Origin
https://www.heroscapers.com/communit...43#post2591043
RotV

Origin is a high quality RotV only map which is no small feat. A melee friendly RotV only map is difficult to pull off. The ruins are your only source of cover. I do think the side with the larger ruin has an advantage due to this. I think in order for 5 move melee to be viable on this map the move glyph is almost a must. I did find 6 move dwarves with strategic bonding fared much better than the typical 5 move melee squads. They could pop out from behind the middle of the ruin and contest the triple height on even ground if it was open. The 5 move would still be giving up high ground to do this.

Lateral movement wasn’t great for melee either. Trying to leave the central plateau to contest the glyphs was an endeavor. I think I would prefer it if there was no down elevation between the middle plateau and the sides. That way lateral movement could be achieved fairly easily.

Having said all that, I have found that melee can contest range on this map without too much concern. The wider map and lack of obstacles and choke points does make it “tougher” for rats to totally tie up everything without at least 3 squads. I’m at a bit of a crossroads much like my Common Ground review all those years ago which is also a great RotV only map. I really do think this map is very well done. However I think it’s just missing the mark by a small margin to make it one of the best of the best of the best.

I vote no

[superfrog]

You play on those maps a bunch recently or something?

[Foudzing]

Nomanisam by Sheep

This is a superb map (I'm a fan of the RotV+VW+TJ combo) with a lot of original stuff in it, using FotA only for ladders and battlements is a premiere I think haha. The map has a lot of interesting dynamics and features, I like the 2 level solid lava "barrier" in front of SZ, the whole map was used in every game I played.
Unfortunately the map has some problems, it pulls left, with the 7 hex plateau on your left being easier access, it hasn't been a problem in my games but I can see it it being a problem. Overall the 7 hex plateaus are too strong and too hard to attack into and the best spots are the ladders spots who provides easy height with no drawback and can be abused a lot by ranged figures who can use them. Also the map is quite hard to navigate through making then melee vs range machup even harder.

It's a beautiful interesting and original map but I would not recommend it for every format, I vote No to induct.

Canary by superfrog

I'm usually not a fan the the "shadow pool" maps, I think it often make the map 1 dimensionnal but here I must say it works perfectly. With the level 2 shadow pool in the center and all the Jungle this is obvisouly a melee friendly map but ranged armies has also some stuff to work with near their SZ with the level 3 spot and using the hills smartly. All the games I watched and play were interesting and both sides of the maps were used.

I vote YES to include Canary in WoS.

Origin by Flash_19

So I haven't voted on the first one, and to be fair I wasn't sure it was so good by looking at it, but after playing and watching some games on it I think it's a great and simple map, really good at what it does. Obviously with this set only (no jungle, no road, no lava, no shadow) this is not going to be the most melee friendly map in the field, but I still think the range melee machup is completely fine, melee can cross the map easily and can easily control both glyph if range does camp near SZ. If range manage to get to height that's going to be hard obviously but this is more a feature of the map and it incites range to move out of the SZ which I very like. Also if a Raelin pod want to establich on the central height it's going to be not easy with the ruin preventing vision from SZ to center you have to move Raelin then establish your whole pod in the middle, it's not easy at all, and melee can prevent that by rushing, it leads to interesting choice and dynamics in the machup.
The whole map is used and interesting I really like the small heights on the sides and the update help melee figures cross them more easily which I think is very good.

I think it's a quite simple map, but very balanced and interesting enough strategically, I vote YES to induct in the WoS.

[superfrog]

I am submitting (finally, I meant to do this months ago) my map Blackberry to WoS (2 M:tCB, 2 RttFF).



Blackberry was one of the maps that kicked off the Marvel map craze of late 2022, created just before the ScapeCon III contest. I drew some inspiration from the very first WoS nomination (Mayberry by mad_wookiee) but the differences are relatively apparent at a first glance.

My two main issues with Mayberry from playing and reading WoS reviews were the massive central double-wide canyon and the several spaces of level 3 that were set back not adjacent to the road. So, while keeping the road that basically goes everywhere, I added a few things for additional interest and momentum in gameplay. The first is that the double-wide central road is interrupted by two spurs of level 3 that are capped with level 4 ends. This is intended to draw development forward through the central road to interact with opponent's figures developing on their level 2.

The ruin is opened in this map to allow for easy access to that center, but there are also strong plays available by developing left or right onto the pseudo-perches. In the process of revising this map after several tournaments of play, I ended up raising a significant portion of the road to level 2 to allow those perches to be more easily contested.

I will say that the road bonus on this map is not always utilized in its entirety. Lots of moves will happen on road but not be able to get the full bonus of the +3 move. But the map wouldn't play the same at all with one road set, so I think some of the less useful road spurs are still justified as stretching these sets to their max.

Qualified Tournament Use:
Peoria Monthly, March 2023
Sir Heroscape's Champion Circle League, Qualifier II, June 2023

Non-Qualified Tournament Use (too small):
SoCal Monthlyish, June 2023

Previous Version Tournament Use:
Delmarva, September 2022
Maryland NHSD, October 2022
Oregon Creekside Carnage, October 2022
Utah Monthlies, September 2022

[dok]

Canary by Superfrog

I have had a bunch of chances to play on this map (and I had a small role in some of the final tweaks it saw). It’s the latest in a long line of maps that use this terrain set, and IMO it’s the most successful. I really haven’t had a bad game on this map. It drives the action really well, offers lots of intermediate height, and gives lots of opportunity to move around flanks and change the angle of attack.

There’s a reasonable argument to be made that the abundance of +2 vs. range spots makes it too melee-friendly, but I don’t think it’s overwhelming. YES to induct.



Cage Match Redux by Dignan and caps

This is a good map. Caps has worked really hard over several iterations to address the issues that got me to downvote the original so many years back. It’s really unique and by and large I’ve had good games on it. I would not be upset to see it in a map pool.

However, the leveling of the center road ring, while a definite improvement in the map’s overall feel, now makes the road ring feel like a bit of a be-all, end-all. I would like to see more high ground overlooking these spots, rather than just the two single blips of level 4. Even just 2 more single perches at height 4 would be something. Admittedly, this would require a some rearrangement to find a spot, as you would want them close to the center. But I feel like the map would benefit from a few more of the road spaces surrendering height.

Additionally, and this is a really minor point, but I’d like it if the glyphs on the outside were on level zero.

So, for now, this one is a NO to induct. I could definitely see myself upvoting this map in the future. It’s pretty close, honestly, and I really like having some variety in maps and not just king of the hill. But I think it can be a little better, and probably needs that to get over the top.



Origin update (original by Flash 19)

I have soured slightly on this map since I first reviewed the earlier version. Playing a bunch of range vs. melee on this map has led me to some deep thinking on what’s the best way to use the two ruins when they’re the only LoS blockers you have, and I don’t think this is quite the optimal layout.

That said, I do think the change to the map, with the updates to the sides, is an unambiguous improvement over the original. No longer is there a 7 hexer on the sides where you can turtle up. It’s easy to argue this is the best 1xRotV map out there. YES to update.



April 9th by BiggaBullfrog

I had some rough games on this one at Scapecon. In principle you’d think the jungle bonus should help melee a fair bit here, but in practice you often end up having to abandon the jungle pretty quickly in order to make gains. Armies that have a range advantage can often force the other army to pick one side of the map and then work across to the other side. And when viewed sideways, the map offers a couple different spots where armies can snipe from, and then back out, eventually to the side rails of the map.

All in all this is a pretty good map but I think we can do better with this terrain set. NO to induct.



Nightfall by Typhon2222

I thought this was the best map in the Scapecon map pool, and I think this is a pretty common view. I saw a lot of variety in how games played out here, and I saw the features of the map used in lots of different ways. I don’t think the map is particularly biased towards any army type. There is a very slight pull to the left in deployment, but that position can easily be attacked and for many armies the best move can be to advance more up the middle or to the right. YES to induct.

[superfrog]

With 2 downvotes out of 7 possible votes, April 9th is removed from the queue and Mime Raths has been added to the timer.

[superfrog]

Some WoS stats from the submitter/creator end (previously OEAO has posted some judge stats, but I compiled these the other day and find them pretty interesting):

Of the 20 WoS maps:
8 were submitted from the BoV catalog (out of 32 submissions, 25%)
4 were submitted by OEAO (out of 8 submissions, 50%)
2 were submitted by dok (out of 2 submissions, 100%)
2 were submitted by vegie (out of 7 submissions, 29%)
1 was submitted by the ARV (out of 9 submissions, 11%)
1 was submitted by Dysole (out of 2 submissions, 50%)
1 was submitted by superfrog (out of 5 submissions*, 20%)
1 was submitted by Typhon (out of 3 submissions*, 33%)

----

6 were created by Flash_19 (out of 11 submissions*, 54%)
2 were created by GameBear (out of 6 submissions, 33%)
2 were created by superfrog (out of 5 submissions*, 40%)
2 were created by Typhon2222 (out of 7 submissions*, 29%)
1 was created by Dignan (out of 5 submissions, 20%)
1 was created by LongHeroscaper (out of 2 submissions, 50%)
1 was created by mad_wookiee (out of 6 submissions, 17%)
1 was created by Panopticon (out of 2 submissions, 50%)
1 was created by Robber (out of 2 submissions, 50%)
1 was created by tannergx (out of 2 submissions, 50%)
1 was created by Ulysses (out of 1 submission, 100%)
1 was created by UranusPChicago (out of 2 submissions, 50%)

*not counting pending map submissions