Settling Line of Sight Rules for Double Spaced Figures

[SuperSamyon]

Let's settle this once and for all because I see so many conflicting views on this ruling. What is the official ruling for Double Space figures and line of sight and clear sight? Here is what the rules say:

1. You can't flip a double space figure after they move.

2. You must get behind a figure to see if they have line of sight.

3. Q9 can block his line of sight.

Logically, it doesn't make much sense that the makers of the game would make a point to say you can't flip a double spaced figure during the attack phase if line of sight wasnt going to be an issue. It seems they were anticipating a time when a double spaced character would want to see a figure behind them but they were facing the wrong way hence the need to flip the base.

From a simplicity standpoint, it's more difficult to think that a double spaced figure eyes can see on the back of his head.

Also, it seems odd that Q9's shoulder pads obstruct his view yet he can still see behind himself. Logically, if he can see behind he should be able to turn his waist and see to the sides. Perhaps there is a reluctancy to make a hard stand on these rules because people are used to playing where a double spaces figure sees in all directions. Maybe Q9 was never meant to be that strong and playing him wrong all these years made him into the powerhouse he is today.

I think the rules make it clear that a double spaced figure can only see where he is facing.

What are your thoughts?

[superfrog]

I've always played that LoS can be blocked by any part of a figure other than its head.

[flameslayer93]

For serious or casual play, my stance on LOS is the same: Don’t take it too seriously. The only time to start questioning it is if there are a bunch of minis/trees/whatever around. This includes letting Q9 shoot through his shoulder pads, or whatever.

I don’t get to play as often as I’d like, so I’d rather make my games as relaxed as possible.

[shaolin]

Can a double space figure moonwalk? Just spin them during the move phase and have them back into where they want to go. Or if they aren’t moving they should be able to spin as part of the move phase, right?

[flameslayer93]

Originally Posted by shaolin

Can a double space figure moonwalk? Just spin them during the move phase and have them back into where they want to go. Or if they aren’t moving they should be able to spin as part of the move phase, right?

Double spacers can definitely moonwalk. And they can certainly flip when needed.

[shaolin]

Originally Posted by flameslayer93

Double spacers can definitely moonwalk. And they can certainly flip when needed.

I bet Grimnak has some sweet moves

[lefton4ya]

I meant to post my most recent post on this thread as opposed to on the Book of Major Q10 . We can continue conversation here though.

Originally Posted by lefton4ya

This came up again recently - I may be an a$$ for asking it, but can Q9/Q10 use a special attacks to shoot both in front of and behind them, where the figure's eyes cannot see the figure since a figure is behind him (so the head itself blocks LOS using the "get behind" terminology in the rulebook) and double-space figures cannot flip during attack phase (the best they can do is "shift" on the spaces it is on)? From the FAQ quote above by @Rÿchean "With double-space figures, facing does matter" it seems the answer is no, but everyone seems to agree this is being too much of a stickler and against the spirit of the rules, even in tournaments.

If I am correct, using the head instead of the eyes as a target point is one of the most abused rules as no one seems to care (including myself most of the time). Nilfheim, Moltenclaw, and other dragons were even erratad to allow their horns as alternative target points in addition to head, specifically for this rule. Maybe we need an "errata" for Q9/Q10 that says you can use any part of the head as a target point, but until then I will start being a stickler, especially since I always play against Q9/Q10, rarely with.

Originally Posted by Dr.Goomonkey

I still stand by my last post, and now refuse to edit the word figured into figures. It has officially been grandfathered in.

Anyways, I thought a couple pictures could either help this conversation reach an end, or spiral out of control further; both of which would be good, right?

Given the following situation, where Q10 wants to face that way because there's a figure over there (apparently off the board) that he really wants to shoot. Now, which of these Rats can he shoot, if either.



The bottom one, as is somewhat clear in the picture, cannot be seen from Q10's head, so there is no way he can shoot it unless he turned around (which he cannot do during his attack phase).

The top one, as you can see in this next picture, can be seen from his head, though the space between his shoulder and his back-hump, and thus can be attacked?



Let the nitpicking begin!

Originally Posted by FAQ

Page 5:

Attacks

...
If a single space figure is not facing another figure that he is attacking, does he have line of sight?
... With double-space figures, facing does matter, as certain areas of the body may block Line of Sight. Remember that you can flip your figure anytime during a double-space figures move, so keep Line of Sight in mind when you are moving.

Page 11:

Major Q9
“Raknar’s Vision”

Can Major Q9‟s shoulder pads block his own line of sight?
Yes. When checking to see if you have a clear line of sight with Q9, you may want to look behind the targeted figure’s Hit Zone to see if you can see Q9’s head, or the side of his face. He cannot fire directly behind himself. (Hasbro FAQ)

This Q9 FAQ is confusing because the first part of it "see if you can see Q9’s head, or the side of his face" seems to contradict with "He cannot fire directly behind himself" as the first statement seems to imply that you can fire behind yourself, but the Attack FAQ + the Errata for Dragons using their horns make it pretty clear that you cannot see through your own head. Anyway I would love a clarification as I feel like an A$$ telling someone playing Q9/Q10 you can't shoot in front of AND behind you on the same turn when EVERYONE plays otherwise even though IMHO that is the rule.

[SuperSamyon]

@lefton4ya no, you are reading it correctly. The way I interpret Hasbro here, is basically "Q9 cannot fire behind himself. With that in mind, use your opponents figure and see if you can see any of the facing Q9s head. If you can, he can hit you." You would never do the above exercise if Q9 wasn't facing you.

They should have said the last sentence first about not firing behind you when clarifying so it reads better.

The way I play, whatever direction Q9 is facing, I basically take a 180 degree half circle in front of the figure and anything in that vicinity can be targeted unless something like say, shoulder pads blocks it.

[superfrog]

Lefton4ya has quoted the relevant rules: You must draw a line of sight through a figure's head, and Q9 cannot see behind himself (except by the side of his head).

Look at this picture of Q9 and Q10 from behind. Can you see their heads?



No, you can't, and that's why they don't have LoS behind themselves.

In my mind, there's only one ruling that is consistent with established rules:

There must be a clear line of sight from a "seeing" figure's Target Point to the other figure's Hit Zone. This line must not pass through any part of the "seeing" figure's body other than its head.

This means that figures with a head in front, like many soulborgs, cannot see behind themselves. Shurrak would be another example. Figures like Jotun don't have this problem since their head is on top of their body.

[Flash_19]

Originally Posted by superfrog

In my mind, there's only one ruling that is consistent with established rules:

There must be a clear line of sight from a "seeing" figure's Target Point to the other figure's Hit Zone. This line must not pass through any part of the "seeing" figure's body other than its head.

This means that figures with a head in front, like many soulborgs, cannot see behind themselves. Shurrak would be another example. Figures like Jotun don't have this problem since their head is on top of their body.

That's the simplest and best explanation I have heard. Thanks Superfrog!

[Dr.Goomonkey]

Wait, so what is this conclusion actually saying? Are you trying to tell me that Q10 cannot shoot that Nagrub?

Spoiler Alert!

When checking to see if you have a clear line of sight with Q9, you may want to look behind the targeted figure’s Hit Zone to see if you can see Q9’s head, or the side of his face. He cannot fire directly behind himself.

I interpret that differently than @SuperSamyon 's, "Q9 cannot fire behind himself. With that in mind, use your opponents figure and see if you can see any of the facing Q9s head. If you can, he can hit you."

I would read it more as, "Q9, like all figures, must be able to see figures to shoot them. Because his sculpt is funky, you might want to look from the other side to make sure he can see properly. Because of his sculpt, he can't see people directly behind him." It seems to me like they just didn't think of a situation where a figure was behind him and could be seen from his head when they answered that question. Having two characters singled out as being unable to shoot anybody they can see seems really ridiculous.

[Craig Van Ness]

Originally Posted by Flash_19

That's the simplest and best explanation I have heard. Thanks Superfrog!

It has been a while since I have commented on rules. I think superfrog is correct.